From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Sat May 17 2003 - 00:16:27 MDT
Ron writes
> [Lee writes]
> > I have to be skeptical that it can be documented that either
> > the Marxists or the neo-cons have actually stated things like
> > "truth is too hard for people to bear", and "it is necessary
> > to tell lies".
> I believe those points could be documented if someone had the
> interest. Now grant me that I consider the communists/Marxist/
> Leninist/socialist to be simply differing point on a single
> continuum.
> Again if you re-read your Hayek I am pretty sure you will find
> specific references to not being forthright with the masses
> about the leaders intentions. I recall the former Soviet Ambassador
> to Washington's wife speaking on the subject -- Alexsandra ??
> I can understand your skepticism, but consider would a group of
> leaders that killed their citizenry by the millions stop at lying?
> I think not.
Oh, there is no question whatsoever that the more tyrannical
the regime, the more lies. But what I meant was, is there
any *necessary* part of Marxist or Neo-con *doctrine* that
endorses lies? It wouldn't even surprise me to learn that
Lenin himself, when first steeped in Marxism, believed that
it would be possible for the leaders of the new revolution
to be completely truthful. It was only as he acquired power
that his idealism had to desert him as he encountered practical
obstacles.
Mike writes
> Lee Corbin writes:
> > Ron writes
> >
> >> you [Mike Wiik] also wrote, "He [Leo Strauss] also argued
> >> that Platonic truth...
> I didn't write that. I quoted from the IHT article. I cut'n'pasted it.
Yes, I supposed that that had been understood by the members
of this conversation, but you are entirely correct to point
out that this was not actually your claim. Sorry.
The truth is,
Mike Wiik wrote
> [William Pfaff IHT in <The long reach of Leo Strauss> wrote]
> > Leo Strauss argued that Platonic truth is too hard for people
> > to bear, and that the classical appeal to "virtue" as the
> > object of human endeavor is unattainable. Hence it has been
> > necessary to tell lies to people about the nature of political
> > reality.
and so, when all is said and done, we have William Pfaff claiming
that Leo Strauss argued that lies must be told.
Now I could credit that Leo Strauss might recognize that as a
practical matter when influencing debate, especially if your
side is in the saddle, you may have to tell lies, or at least,
that it is greatly in your best interest to do so. (This is
why most governments on Earth lie to their people, though
not systematically so in non-tyrannies.)
But I do *not* credit that lying is a part of Neo-con, or even
Nazi philosophy. I simply have never heard of any ideology
that cynical.
Lee
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