From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Sat Apr 12 2003 - 21:51:45 MDT
Damien writes
> On Thu, Apr 10, 2003 at 09:43:49PM -0700, Lee Corbin wrote:
>
> > It's interesting to note, however, and contrary to my optimism
> > and contrary to what I think is the very long term trend, life
> > appears to have gotten harder for people following the agricultural
> > revolution---or at least for some people.
>
> *very* long term trend, perhaps. I've seen studies saying that heights at
> least didn't climb back up to pre-agricultural heights until the 20th century.
> Between tall Cro-Magnons and tall agribusiness-fed Americans are a lot of
> short people with bad teeth. And not just the lower classes, necessarily.
By coincidence, I just ran across this passage in the fine book "In the
Hands of the Great Spirit", by Jake Page. (The sub-title is "The 20,000
Year history of the American Indians.) The book is great. For one thing,
he points out that Native Americans living in the lower 48 states don't
like to be called "Native Americans", because this title is too loose, and
fits Eskimos and Aztecs too. They prefer "American Indian", perhaps a
preference going all the way back to AIM?
On page 69 he is talking about some of the tribes inhabiting the eastern U.S.
Each such settlement was permanent, year-round, and used usually for
some ten years before the family moved on. Life was generally good:
except for such relatively minor health problems as dental caries
(from eating so much corn), the commoners were generally in as good
health as the elite. They gainsay the adage that with the coming
of agriculture, people tend to grow smaller in stature.
So, the pendulum goes back again (probably on a smaller oscillation).
Medieval people didn't think of early agriculturalists at all (they
hardly existed for them); Burke thought them very hard up, then
Rousseau that they were much better off than we, then 19th and 20th
century (I guess) anthropologists thought them unhealthy, and now
finally here we are seeing that it's quite a mixed bag.
> The Art Institute of Chicago has a very stable exhibit in Gunsaulus Hall, full
> of medieval armor and weapons. What's interesting is that the suits of full
> plate armor they have on display are about 5'2". (Not exact number. But
> *short*. You look over the helmet, then realize the armor is on a raised
> platform to begin with.)
Yes. I knew that the Spaniards were quite short compared to us, and it's
also true that people in the last decades all over the world are bigger.
> And I've seen criticism of the common statement "well, at least they were
> better off than on the farm" regarding the conditions of 19th century factory
> workers. It's not clear that the front line of workers, working 12+ hours a
> day in dark factories and living in crowded and filthy tenements were better
> off than they would have been on a farm. Their grandchildren, yes, much
> better off...
Well, we need more research on this, or perhaps Steve Davies knows.
I've finished an interesting book called "The Five Points" which
traces the history of the famous awful slum of New York, and the
passage from Ireland of many people to it. Not only had they been
starving in Ireland, but even at the best of times had a standard
of living much worse than in the famous cesspool "The Five Points".
I still think that there is a tendency for us to react as Charles
Dickens did and be very appalled at factory life, yet (probably)
be quite ignorant of just how bad it was. But I grant your example,
and the possibility that you are right.
> > One is reminded of Robin Hanson's "What if Uploads Come First?",
> > a bleak (and to me slightly unbelievable) picture of how once
> > again high tech might result in a *lowering* of income.
>
> Smart educated people command high incomes because they're rare and expensive
> to produce. If they become mass producible, a commodity even, why shouldn't
> the price they command drop? Just like music files on the internet. Bits
> want to be free...
I think that a Singularity will occur before uploads (hence the
logic of Robin's title). But I should refresh myself on his paper
before saying more.
Lee
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