From: matus (matus@snet.net)
Date: Sat Mar 29 2003 - 10:17:47 MST
Hubert,
We all ready know that you dont like the war, so perhaps instead of posting
these long diatrabes and desciptions of your previous days lunch's you could
just say 'I dont like the war'. When you realize that you would end up with
multiple posts each day that simple say 'I dont like the war' you will see
why your arguments are getting your opinion no where. We know you dont like
the war.
> If you cannot understand that I am against the US/UK troops *and* against
> Saddam Hussein at the same time
You pay lip service to disliking Saddam, but have presented no evidence
indicating as much. If you dislike him so much, then why the concentrated
effort to dissuade people from voluntarily choosing to oust him?
> but what can be more tasteless than
> this current war on Iraq?
Here you find an essential dividing point between you and us. Those who
support this war see it as more tasteless to leave a murderous dictator in
power than it would be to remove him. As Robert Bradbury pointed out,
leaving Saddam in power will cause more deaths of Iraqi people then taking
him out of power. He asked anyone to present a reasonable challenge to that
notion, and received no responses as of yet. A few months back another
poster presented an eloquent list of the reasons why extropians should want
Saddam removed.
We do not support war because we like to see people die, or get our jollies
off of watching bombs fall in Iraq, and until you understand the reasons
*why* those of us who actually support this effort support it, and address
those points, your comments will not persuade anyone.
For starters, in no particular order
1) Saddam is a murderous tyrant dictator, his Anfal campaign was a
systemetic attempt to wipe out the Kurdish population (aka genocide)
conservative estimates has him responsible for 200,000 murders, 50,000 of
which were perpetrated when he squashed the Shiite majority uprising post
Gulf War I
2) UN Security resolution 1441, signed as a unanimous vote in the UN,
dictates that he should disarm peacefully and immediately and expose all
previously discovered chemical, biological weapons and delivery systems. If
he did not, he would face 'serious consequences'
3) From an American perspective, Saddam poses a threat to the American
People. 9/11 demonstrated the domestic American vunlerabilities, that small
parties can inflict large casualties. We need not see an IRAQI battleship
cruising up the Hudson to consider Saddam an immediate and direct threat,
which leads into the next one
4) Saddam is a despotic west hating tyrant, and it is reasonable to suspect
that if he gets the capability to attack the US, he will. He has been
actively trying to acquire nuclear weapons, attempted to build an artillery
cannon capable of launching projectiles into orbit.
5) Saddam controls the worlds second largest energy supply, and as a
murderous tyrant, uses it for, surprise, murder and tyranny.
6) There are no Arab Democracies, and a democratic IRAQ could potentially
become a 'shinning beacon of democracy in an arab sea of tyranny, oppresion,
and despair' When arab peoples see the life that can be lived in a free
Arab nation, it can help to diffuse the anti-west hatred and anti-progress
attitude that many arab theocracies, monarchies, and dictators have imposed
upon their people. (Optimistic admittedly, but everyone is so pessimestic,
its nice to have a little optimism)
There are many other reasons to support the effort to remove Saddam Hussain
from power, but unless you address and/or invalidate these points (or
whatever other ones other supporters have) you will not change any ones
minds. So I guess it boils down to what your goal is, reminding everyone
that you dont like the war, or trying to change other peoples minds about
it. We know you dont like the war, so dispense with your creative efforts
at saying as much, and just post 'I dont like the war' Pointing out to
supporters the dismay that the Iraqi people undergo dissuades no supports
because they believe, legitamtely, the more suffering will be caused by
inaction than by action.
Additionally, no one has a *right* to be a Dictator, and that is what Saddam
was. He could have walked away and saved all of the causalties and deaths
now caused. He is morally culpable now for each and every death this War
causes, simply because he wanted to remain a murderous dictator.
Michael Dickey
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