From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Wed Mar 26 2003 - 19:57:48 MST
Charles writes
> Lee Corbin wrote:
>
> > Cory writes
> > > So, here, most Iraqis must know that they cannot win
> > > against any one of the coalition nations in an all out
> > > war, let alone all of them. If to them, being overrun
> > > by the infidels or western imperialists, or whatever
> > > association the may rightly or wrongly have, is the
> > > worst fate, then they logically must do anything they
> > > can to circumvent this.
> >
> > "Anything"? You are putting forth the interesting
> > thesis that any act is justified in order to avoid
> > losing a war. There are pluses to this view, and
> > minuses.
>
> Justified is an interesting word. Perhaps a better term
> would be "an expected reaction".
You're right to call it "interesting" --- how about confusing
and ill-advised? ;-) Actually, in the context that I had
been speaking, I had hoped that it would be understood to
connote whatever Cory was personally approving of. I have
not succeeded yet in getting Cory to communicate any moral
outrage about anything (though perhaps I will, if I can
remember to get back to answering his last post).
> I don't see much on either side that is justifiable, in any
> absolute sense.
That's the problem. It's dreadful terminology. That's why
the advanced and beneficent philosophy of PCR comes down
against "justificationism" so hard.
> In a more limited sense, self-defense is normally recognized
> as legitimate. But as to what should be an expected reaction...
> here we get back to theft being a hanging offense.
The trouble one has with your "expected reaction" is that
your approach seems to be too analytical and devoid of
emotion in the current case at hand, and also that it is
obviously going to differ from person to person and from
group to group. That is, the "expected reaction" of a
group of cannibals to some fat person waving a white
flag we expect to greatly differ from that of a group of
Swiss soldiers. The first group says, "There's one!
Yum, yum! Looks like he's even eager!", whereas the
Swiss would have much less of a gut reaction.
> If they see they have nothing to lose [and that's the
> correct spelling, for all you amazing people who don't
> have English for your first language], then one should
> expect them to do all they can, for revenge if not for
> victory.
Not necessarily true. What is to be "expected" often
does not turn out to be the case, often for very unclear
reasons. See my post to Cory later tonight for an example.
> Once you have killed their children, most people would
> have few scruples at violating normal ethics to achieve
> revenge.
Yes. In a related thread I offered a choice of what to do
with Stalin if we did have the technology to resurrect him.
I sided with Eliezer and others who said that the correct
choice was to do what was best for him, given a practically
post-Singularity tech. Namely, to use a small cubic centimeter
of matter out near the orbit of Pluto to emulate him having
a good time with his old pals, reflecting on his life.
But then, I was not one of Stalin's countless victims, nor
was any of my family. If I lived in the year 1953, and he
had had my family murdered, you betcha I want him to pay,
even if he's already dead.
> It's one of the most powerful motivators that people have.
> So you had better expect it if you go in for mass bombing
> of civilian locations.
Oh? Here is a counter-example. The British (and Americans)
ruthlessly bombed to utter destruction the city of Dresden
in World War Two for no military reason whatsoever, just to
"weaken" the German will to resist. So when the war ended
a few months later, where was the revenge that *you* would
expect? It never, never happened. Where, even, were the
cries that the British should be tried as war criminals?
> And we haven't been as scrupulous as we were claiming
> we would be.
Are you speaking of the present war?
> So we had better expect extreme reactions by some reasonable
> fraction of the populace.
Not proved.
> In short, they've got good reason to hate our guts.
> (Thank you, Mr. President.)
My God, if one cannot even predict the reactions of Germans
after defeat---and you better believe that one hell of a lot more
of them supported Hitler than Iraqis support Saddam---and this
in a nation (Germany) vastly, vastly more similar to you than
the Arab countries, then you have no idea of what to expect or
exactly what flavor of hatred the current war is inspiring.
Who knows? Life is valued so differently in that part of the
world, and perhaps even the adage "might makes right" could
be so differently valued, that I must dispute your statement.
Lee
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