From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Sun Mar 23 2003 - 23:00:22 MST
Nate writes
> Is there a term for all false value systems that are sold to people?
No generic term that I can think of. The examples that come to
mind are religions and economic philosophies. That's because
those are the only ones that I can think of that are "sold":
they don't arise in all civilizations or societies. Concrete
examples might be Judaism and Communism. While Marxism was
"sold" to millions of people, it's nonetheless evident that
the time was ripe for those ideas, and that people were
predisposed towards them.
> Such as (a) cultural value systems, (b) media value
> systems, (c) military value systems etc.
It's not real clear what you mean. Perhaps by way of examples,
(a) the degree to which lies are acceptable within a culture
(to save face or something)
(b) how repressed or free the media is, is all I can think of
(c) staying in rank, supporting your comrades, obeying orders
for military values?
> The word propaganda really only refers to media.
> I use the term value system meaning a system designed
> to bring about certain emotional responses to certain
> stimuli. What is the correct terminology here?
Again, I don't know of any generic term. Examples that
come to mind are rousing patriotic speeches, automatic
respect for the flag, the King, or the Cross, mood music,
aged visages or sacred relics to elicit respect, political
symbols such as the Hammer and Sickle, or Swastika. The
role of icons in modern Greek and Eastern Europe is
fascinating. But I realize you're heading into *memes* here...
> It is interesting to note that the evolution of culture
> is no different than the evolution of any other meme.
> It is also interesting to note that as long as you fit
> into a greater memeplex such as democracy etc... the
> details of a culture might as well be random from an
> evolutionary standpoint.
So it would seem.
> All these memes that control emotion control people.
This is the contention of folks like Susan Blackmore
(who wrote the excellent Meme Machine). Upon final
judgment my friends and I concluded that memetic
analysis doesn't really provide additional information;
it's much like looking at the same information in a
different coordinate system, i.e., seeing the same
thing from a different perspective.
Now it's still a very open question to me the degree
to which some memes such as
honesty is the best policy
Just say No!
two wrongs don't make a right
character counts!
X has a right to Y
patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel
War is not healthy for children, and other living things
and so on, really affect behavior. They do have an effect,
that much is certain. I doubt that there is anyone reading
this who has not felt their persuading influence at one time
or another of one or more of these. Speculating almost
irresponsibility via my own introspection, it seems that
if you are *already* inclined to some form of feeling or
in favor of some kind of action, then if one of these ready
memes suddenly comes to mind, it can solidify the response
you're having.
> All these value systems have been sorted out to fit the
> mold of America.
Okay---now you are getting very specific about the memeplexes
afflicting one particular nation. Perhaps one could proceed
to analyze the memes that Americans have separately from
everyone else? I really wouldn't know where to start there.
Since the title of this thread relates all this to IRAQ, then
the current context suggests that one may wish to know what
memes drive the Americans to a 71% favorable view of invading
Iraq. But clearly, many, many people around the world,
especially in Australia, Poland, and Britain, are being driven
by these same memes. (Once again I repeat the warning that
to speak of memes is IMO just another way to speak of the
same phenomena in more conventional language, just hoping that
meme-language jogs or inspires certain ideas more easily.)
Clearly the Americans are affected still by 9-11, and feel (or
hope) that Bush's aggression towards Afghanistan and Iraq will
diminish the probabilities---in the long run, perhaps---of
further incidents inimical to Western peace and prosperity.
So: "we have a right [sic] to protect ourselves", "evil and
vicious dictators like Mussolini, Hitler, Tojo, etc., deserve
getting crushed", and "right makes might" (a brand new one
recently created, we should google), might be some of the
ones driving things now. Think of any others?
> They [the value systems] haven't been chosen but naturally
> selected. In theory, we have been taught what is the positive
> emotional response and what is a negative emotional response.
Yes, but the verb "have been taught" conjures up images of
conspiracy, or control by certain people or groups. Your
earlier remarks about natural growth and evolution are more
accurate IMO.
Yes, but the learning is far from uniform. A number of people,
especially from religious or rural backgrounds, appear to have
loyalties to "the flag" or "our country" in excess of those
from many minority groups, many university intellectuals, and
certain cosmopolitans. After all, obviously 29% of the Americans
at this time find none of the above memes sufficiently driving,
nor do they embrace solidarity with the rest of the citizens
against a foreign country.
So, as we discover that there is a gene for religiosity, may
we not eventually find that genes exist for patriotism? Or
even genes for liberalism!? I wouldn't be so surprised!
> We have been taught to fit this mold of America. It has
> become our Nature.
Can't agree. No one "taught" the Americans anything. And
you cannot say it has become their Nature because dissent
is too widespread.
Thanks for the very thought-provoking points and questions.
Lee
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