From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Tue Feb 18 2003 - 21:47:59 MST
Eliezer writes
> Lee Corbin wrote:
> > The future won't be here for a while, and you surely understand
> > the evolutionary forces behind patriotism. Don't you agree that
> > countries whose citizens are endowed with patriotism survived
> > throughout history whereas countries not so endowed perished?
>
> ERROR 514: Group selection postulated in evolutionary argument.
Group selection is hardly dead. See the Simpson's Paradox arguments
for starters. I would further recommend "Unto Others", a fairly
good and comprehensive case for group selection. At the larger
level, group selection appears as a different description of
phenomena lying under other concepts in other interpretations.
Secondly, there is indeed a selectionist effect of memes. To
some degree your most ardent patriot and devout internationalist
have beliefs substantially influenced by their environments. So
even if there were no *biological* group selection effect, there
certainly is a cultural one (though it should be called something
else).
> > Yet you are not annoyed by the irrational love of a mother
> > for her child. Why are you annoyed, then, by the irrational
> > love of someone for his or her nation?
>
> Body count.
On the contrary. Patriotism (which is a form of community spirit)
helped to make organized society possible. As I said to the other
LDC, if you'd been raised in a close tightly-knit community under
threat of destruction from other groups, you'd probably feel
differently. Today we citizens of large nations are not so
consciously aware of the trials of those who founded our nations
in the first place. A glance at early English history---or that
of *any* nation---will make my point.
I do want to readily admit however, that these ancient drives
are not necessarily optimal for the future, and should be subject
to possible editing. But the editing could go either way. If
SAIs are borg-like, then evolution may cause them to be more
bellicose than their creators!
Lee
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