From: MaxPlumm@aol.com
Date: Mon Feb 03 2003 - 14:19:45 MST
Hubert Mania wrote:
"For the very very first time in the 48 years of my life I feel a faint pride
to be citizen of a nation that does not agree with US aggression all over
the globe, though it's representatives may surrender at last."
Where is all of this future aggression supposed to take place? Do you
consider our actions in Afghanistan "US aggression"? Did the people of
Afghanistan not benefit from said "aggression"? Why is it not logical to
think that the people of Iraq will too?
"Call me what you will or think of me what you will. I will not engage in
mind games about better or worse superpowers anymore. I am sick of being in
the position where I must justify my peace loving attitude. This is
absolutely ridiculous"
I do not understand this statement. Why do you participate in a discussion
forum if you are not willing, or capable, to defend your positions to those
with whom you have discussion? There is nothing wrong with having "a peace
loving" attitude, my experience on this site leads me to believe it is
something shared by everyone on this forum. But by the same token, you cannot
blindly dismiss everyone who believes war with Iraq as "war-mongers",
"imperialists", or any other such empty term. By ridiculing the positions and
arguments of those who have differing opinions than you in one sentence
sarcastic remarks, you are no better than what you claim them to be.
"All of you, who are so war horny today, YOU (plural) are the ones who should
ask yourselves if you still have anything to do with transhumanism."
This is precisely what I refer to above. "War horny", come on Hubert, I know
you're capable of better than that. The conclusions reached by me, Michael,
Ron and others in regard to action in Iraq are not the result of madness,
mind control drugs administered by President Bush, or any other such
nonsensical explanation. I do not believe that action in Iraq will lead to
mass casualties, nor do I believe it will be a long enterprise, at least not
in terms of facilitating regime change. There is no evidence to support that
it will turn into this horror show that you, Samantha, and others have
suggested it will. There is no superpower supplying aid to Iraq, which is
precisely the reason that Korea, Vietnam, and Afghanistan for the Soviets
turned into costly (in terms of lives) ventures. I would ask why people who
support this enterprise are required to justify why it will not turn into a
blood bath but you do not hold yourself and those who share your position to
the same standards. Why would this Iraqi effort be any bloodier than the
Persian Gulf War? Why would it be more costly in terms of human life than our
removal of the Taliban? Where is the evidence to support your assertions?
"One of the most original and intelligent minds of this movement - EUGEN
LEITL - has
already unsubscribed extropy list because he could't stand the battle cries
here on this list any more. This is huge loss for the movement."
In what sense? One must be willing to articulate and defend their positions
in order to change minds and courses of action. It's not much of a movement
if you don't debate with those that have differing opinions than yourself and
attempt to change their minds. You're just standing still at that point.
Again, your attitude is, if someone's attitude is different than mine, it's
just "battle cries." If Mr. Leitl is unwilling to challenge the positions of
others with more than useless labels before retreating in a huff, then I
don't see the loss.
"No power has the right to attack a country even if a monster of a dictator
rules there. The US/UK junta is going to ignite a world fire pretty soon and
the supporters of war among you know it."
Again, instead of fear mongering, why don't you defend your untenable
position with evidence or facts? I know nothing of the sort that "a world
fire" is going to ignite. Where? Why hasn't it already, since we removed the
Taliban in Afghanistan? The fanatics in Islam are now going to "set on fire"
because the US removes a secular Middle Eastern ruler? I could just as easily
say, "Sitting on our hands is akin to having a death wish, just as having not
acted against the Nazis or the Soviets would have been, and you in the peace
movement know it." Enough with the fire and brimstone rhetoric, let's have
some serious debate on this issue.
"I am no enemy of the USA. I have always looked over the Atlantic and admired
this great nation and their achievements, but not necessarily their
governments and their involvements in Indochina."
I don't object to you having problems with some of our elected leaders in the
past, I certainly do. But again, what is the basis for you objecting to us
intervening in Indochina? We didn't attack first, the North Vietnamese were
sponsored and armed by the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China,
and the government of the Republic of Vietnam requested our assistance. If it
was right for us to intervene in World Wars I and II, then it was right for
us to intervene in Indochina.
"And Saddam is a monster whose term of government should be over as soon as
possible. Of course. If you think, that US marines will be invading the Iraq
and also do it for
your children in Poland, well, believe it and be satisfied with it."
Who believes this? Any action the US takes vis-à-vis Iraq will be in our own
national interest, namely our national security. But I can't believe you
would argue that the people of Iraq wouldn't benefit from the removal of
Saddam Hussein. We didn't act in World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam,
or any other locale you can think of due to altruism. We did it with the US
interests in mind first and foremost. Believe it or not, means and ends can
sometimes be complementary.
"But disagreeing with this kind of a preemptive war, the US/UK want to start
pretty soon, I am expressing my doubts in and my fear of this very special
sense of mission that the conservative America displays. They send their
sons to die, do quasi religious nonsense towards their flag, great their War
Lord Bush and then pray that their realives in New York won't be
extinguished by a terrorist nuke."
Again, you simply insult the United States with no evidence. I could just
say, "The quasi religious worshipping at the altar of cowardice displayed by
Gerhard Schroeder is nauseating" but it wouldn't be any more constructive..
"I am no Old and no New European. I habe been in opposition to German
government all my life so far. I am sick of politicians, be they old or new,
European or American. And I do know that the stance of German chancellor
Gerhard Schroeder towards the Iraq might not emerge from the noblest of
motives. But I agree with 80 % of the German people that a war on Iraq might
set the world on fire in a way you have never thought of before."
Well, given my concerns regarding possible US-Soviet nuclear armageddon from
way back when, I cannot imagine the world set on fire in a way worse than that
…But again, where is the justification for this doomsday scenario?
"A German expert on Iraq has published a book with the title "Who will be
crying for Abdul and Tanyana" trying to direct the attention on the misery
of the civil deaths in Iraq. Think about dead women and children too, when
you will be proud to have conquered the oil wells with your American marine
friends"
As Michael and Ron have so eloquently stated earlier, it doesn't seem anyone
is crying for Abdul and Tanyana now.
"Ron, when will you ever understand that being highly sceptical about the way
the US tries to get rid of Sadam does not mean to be a friend of Sadam or an
enemy of the USA. Do yourself a favour and think in technicolor instead of
only black and white."
This is the pot calling the kettle black. You are suggesting that any action
in Iraq will lead to universal armageddon, with no other possible outcome,
but Ron is the one thinking in black and white?
Regards,
Max Plumm
"At every turn, we have been beset by those who find everything wrong with
America and little that is right."
-Richard Nixon
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