From: Dickey, Michael F (michael_f_dickey@groton.pfizer.com)
Date: Mon Feb 03 2003 - 09:46:40 MST
-----Original Message-----
From: Damien Broderick [mailto:thespike@earthlink.net]
"The trouble with deciding whether or not a war is just is that it is
usually only possible to know when it is over. Most people would now agree
that World War II (but not the Vietnam War) was a just war. What if Saddam
is just as dangerous as Hitler was?"
As myself and others have frequently noted on this list, it is logical and
rational to consider the vietnam war as a just effort, and reasons for
thinking otherwise have so far seemed to be internally inconsistent, biased,
or ignorant of many of the events in Indochina. But I of course agree that
'most people' do indeed consider the vietnam war as not just. I have
wondered what 'most people' think of the Korean war, since they were so
similar, but I havent heard much on that. It seems, from my limited
experience, 'most people' don't think much at all about the Korean war, even
enough to have an opinion on it.
But popular opinion doesn't not make something just or un just, as this is
the fallacy of 'voting = freedom' In unchecked system the majority can (and
do) vote away the rights of the minority. In Vietnam the North attempted to
vote away by majority the right of the South to exist, in the US decades ago
the rights of minorities were easily voted away based on arbitrary traits,
today many rights of minority idealogies are readily voted away by the
majority in the US (atheists, people who choose to behave in ways not
socially condoned by the majority, and even extropians, who are forbidden by
law to combat with their intellect and determination the imprisonment that
their arbitrary set of genes places on them with enhancement treatments) I
am sure similar events occur in many other countries consider 'modern' For
me, these arent modern enough.
To consider something just or unjust we can not resort to popular opinion,
we must base that on a set of ethical principles, not moral relatives and
vague appeals to popularity, ignorance, or authority. With that in mind,
the following text quoted in this email is absolutely deplorable, full of
half truths, misconceptions, and outright propoganda. My comments on this
text are inserted below.
"So that's what people mean by a just war?"
"I guess so. A just war is when you have to defend yourself because someone
has attacked you. Or when a friendly country is attacked and its leaders ask
you to help them defend themselves."
[In this example Vietnam falls into both of these catagories, it was
friendly to the US, and was attacked by an aggressive neighbor, and asked
for help. Yet our involvment is consider by most to be morally unjust. It
is rediculous of this author to imply that the only justifcations for war
are self defense in an invasion of domestic territory, or at the specific
request of another *country*. What if that *country* is not a voice
representing its people? (e.g. is a monarchy, theocracy, or dictatorship
that is despotic) What if the country is murdering its own people? Is it
morally just to stay out or morally *required* to intervene. Was it moral
to ignore the plight of the cambodian people under pol pots regime? Was it
moral for US congress to make it *illegal* to help the cambodian people?
Obviously the issua or a moral war is much more complicated then 'are they
attacking us' What constites an 'attack'? What if a state is funding the
attackers? What if the attackers only hit targets that are non domestic?
What if they hit targets of allies? Is it moral to stand by and watch a
corrupt murderous tyrant oppress his own people? Is it moral to stand by
and allow that same murderous tyrant to control the worlds second largest
supply of energy? We keep guns out of the hands of criminals, but claim it
unjust to yank the power to run armies and launch invasions out of the hands
of murderers?]
"So if America attacks Iraq and Iraq defends itself, that wouldn't be a just
war for America, but it would be for Iraq. And if Iraq asks one of its
friends to help it defend itself against America, that would be a just war
for the other country, right?"
And
"But if he doesn't attack anyone, how can invading his country be a just
war? According to you, invading another country would always be wrong."
[1st of all, Iraq is not a moral state. Saddam is a dictator and exists
only on the oppresion of the people. A dictator has no *right* to be a
dictator, and similiarly has no *right* to even exist as a country. 2nd of
all, this statement ignores that justifacation that Iraq and Saddam
represent a clear and present danger to the United States and its citizens
and its allies. It has numerous weapons of mass destruction that have been
unaccounted for, Saddam is west hating and has a clear record of murder and
tyranny. An act of 'defense' does not require it to be in response as an
effect to an outright invasion or act of aggression. Do we wait for our
neighbor to actually shoot at us before it is moral to shoot at him? Are we
morally right to shoot at him just because he is pointing a gun at us? Or
do we get concerned when he starts acting in a suspicious manner, murdering
and raping his kids, building an arsenal in plain view, posting signs and
stating publicly his his hatred of us, and attempting to acquire large bombs
and explosives? The question of the morality of self defense is obviously
NOT as simple as this author portrays it to be.]
"Well, usually, but, see, everyone thinks Saddam has these really awful
weapons . . ."
"Worse than America's?"
"Not worse, no. But, well, because he's a bad guy, people think he might
decide to use those weapons against some other country some day, so America
wants to invade his country and destroy the weapons before he can use them."
[Even more rediculous. Only comparing the extent of the damage that a
weapon can cause COMPLETELY ignores the fact that Our president has to
answer to his people on this use of these weapons. He is a representative
elected official and as such has numerous checks and balances in place to
ensure he does not become a ruthless tyrant who does whatever he wants and
kills whomever he wants, including his own people, yet this is the exact
kind of government in place in Iraq. Saddam needs no permission and answers
to no one, he can kill who he wants with whatever he wants. Our weapon
aresenal is not sitting aimed at the end crosshair aimed by Bush, Saddam's
is. Merely 'having' 'awful weapons' is not enough, being able to use them
is what matters. The is the fundamental basis for the efforts to reduce the
profileferation of nuclear weapons. Simpleminded automotans unfamiliar with
world affairs cry 'but the US has them as well!' But the US can not use
them whenever and wherever they want, Despotic dictators can, and despotic
dictators with a clear record of murder, tyranny, and hatred for the US and
its allies represents a clear threat and a clearly more unique scenerio then
the Oprah esque question of whether his weapons are just "Worse than
America's?"]
"Hugh Mackay is an author and social researcher."
[Obviously Mr. Mackay is a paragron of ethical principles and the founding
father of modern moral behavior. Or not...]
See - "The justice of war"
This was written in regards to the Taliban and Afghanastan, but its points
on the moral justifaction for war remain valid and much more reasonably
sound that Mr. Mackay's.
----------
The Objectivist Center
by Patrick Stephens
According to Stephens, "In conducting this war, America must use the
hierarchy of just-war principles, and refuse to be
sidetracked or hamstrung by moral relativists who refuse to acknowledge
either the justice of the cause or the responsibility"
http://www.objectivistcenter.org/pubs/pstephens_justice_war.asp
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