From: Anders Sandberg (asa@nada.kth.se)
Date: Sat Jan 25 2003 - 13:27:44 MST
On Sat, Jan 25, 2003 at 11:26:58AM -0800, Lee Corbin wrote:
> Anders writes
>
> > _The Prince_ was an attempt to write a HOWTO-manual for rulers, showing
> > what methods had worked and not worked in the past and explanations of
> > why. For its time it was an amazing document, since it attempted to
> > distinguish political science as the study of what people do or can do
> > from the study of what they *ought* to do - all previous books in the
> > genre were essentially sermons about being a nice just ruler.
>
> Yes, all the previous pious advice was without practical effect
> at all. Today, at least you'd have a (tiny) chance of affecting
> public sentiment due to much improved distribution of information.
I think we underestimate the power of public sentiment because
we are so used to it actually affecting politics.
> > In "Discourses" he emphasized that for a republic to survive, it
> > needed to foster a spirit of patriotism and civic virtue among its
> > citizens.
>
> Yes, and I believe that he suggested means by which rulers
> could attempt to inculcate such values in the citizenry.
> Of course, this is a monumental task, trying to affect
> at all the basic predispositions of the citizens.
It is also rather doubtful that his scheme of uniting Italy
under a ruthless and strong king who would then foster
democracy and republican virtues would actually have worked...
Of course, Machiavelli was a good theorist but rather bad at
practice - when he tried to interest Lorenzo de Medici in his
book, he was brushed aside as a far more interesting visitor (a
dog breeder!) had appeared. Machiavelli also ended up in jail
after some less-than-flexible political dealings.
> Machiavelli pointed out that you should appoint a governor
> of the city, one of your men who you know is inclined to
> drastic solutions. Privately, you even tell him that you
> will totally back his "taking care" of the problem. After
> he has rounded up and killed all the potential leaders of
> a revolt, you "hear about" the atrocities and make a personal
> and loudly publicized visit to the town, and conduct an
> "investigation". You express your horror and outrage at
> the conduct of your governor, and have him promptly and
> publicly executed. You then ask the town its forbearance
> and assure them that so long as you remain their ruler, no
> further atrocities of this kind will ever be permitted.
Ah, so that was where Baron Harkonnen got his bright idea!
> It would be extremely difficult for most of the readers of
> this list, certainly including me, to look a trusting
> subordinate right in the eye and lie like that, planning
> his death, and using him as a pawn.
One has to remember just what kind of men did get to become
rulers during this time - most were literal killers from the
battlefield. It was a brutal and warlike time; that it also
left a lot of refinement, scholarship and art is a great irony.
We better make sure *our* renaissance is less brutal.
My experience from live roleplaying is that lies and betrayal
is something that can be trained. I have due to casting reasons
(I hope) almost always played machiavellian (in the bad sense)
characters and found it easy to lie the entire council in the
face and then quietly betray my closest allies three times
during the evening. I sincerely hope it does not carry over
that easily in real life (after all, it is just a game and
nobody *really* gets killed), but I have no doubt that such
character traits could be cultivated if necessary. That is the
charm and problem with being a human - we can so easily
reprogram ourselves.
> > He was an important step forward, and I actually prefer
> > the politician who has read his books (*all of them*)
> > to somebody who proudly declares himself to be anti-
> > Machiavellian.
>
> That's for sure. That latter politician is no doubt
> just posturing. I recall Clinton announcing at the
> outset of his presidency that it was to be the "most
> ethical administration ever". The utterance of such
> grandiose statements in itself is becoming a giveaway.
That is something Machiavelli never got the chance to see: the
growth of media and propaganda. He works with straightforward
rumor and desinformation - today we have sophisticated
propaganda and also a media-savvy public that loves to ironize
over the real meaning.
-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension! asa@nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~asa/ GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y
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