From: Dickey, Michael F (michael_f_dickey@groton.pfizer.com)
Date: Fri Jan 24 2003 - 08:40:37 MST
-----Original Message-----
From: Samantha Atkins [mailto:samantha@objectent.com]
> "I gave no rant. I told you off for claiming I was just mouthing empty
> slogans as if I had no real thought (several posts accused
> all who think like I of this) or didn't really have any investment but was
> just passing on something I presumably picked up by osmosis."
>
> Such as your opinions on Vietnam?
>
> "Once again you now bob and weave"
>
> Pot calling the kettle black? You should hardly be one to accuse someone
of
> 'bobbing and weaving' considering multilpe people on this list have
> repeatedly asked you to justify your stance on Vietnam, especially when
you
> make clear statement about opposing murderous regimes (such as Hitler) in
> WWII yet find the same attempt to oppose an even more murderous regime
> 'senseless' when considering Vietnam.
"Vietnam is a much less clearcut case."
The fact that you believe it was much less a clear cut case seems to
indicate your lack of knowledge on the subject. How was it not clear cut?
A murderous expansionistic regime was attempting to further murder and
expand. Ho had already killed some 50,000 of his own people during his
version of land reforms. The soviet premiers had announced they would
support any efforts of nationalization. I didn't see south Vietnam
slaughtering 50,000 of its own people and then invading the north. Those
were soviet tanks, anti aircraft guns, machine guns and supplies that the
north were fighting with. And opposing this is what you considered
'senseless'? Well, we opposed it, then abandoned them, and 3 million people
died as a result.
"I have neither the time nor inclination to debate Vietnam when a much more
pressing and immediate senseless war is staring us in the face."
I wonder if the same criteria you used to judge the Vietnam war as senseless
you are also using to judge this effort as 'senseless'
"That is not "bobbing and weaving". It is recognizing priorities and
meaningless tactics that it is pointless to spend precious time playing to."
Sounds like bobbing and weaving to me.
> I also asked you multiple times what
> you felt of the Korean war, and to compare and contrast it with the
Vietnam
> war.
"I am not interest in such a discussion. So what?"
Because there were very few practical differences between the Korean war and
the Vietnam war, except one we won, and the other we abandoned, and
subsequently 3 million people were murdered. Yet one you consider
'senseless', is that just because we lost it? And the other you don't know
enough on it to comment, apparently. Thats why I wonder if you also
consider the Korean war 'senseless' since we won that one, yet more
civilians and combatants were killed, and more of them were draftees as well
(In WWII, some 50% in the army were drafted, in the Vietnam war it was 33%,
with the rest volunteers, the Korean war number of draftees was somewhere in
the middle of those two figures)
> Since I made a valient attempt to not come off as making personal
> attacks or present my case in a condescending tone, I can only conclude
that
> you can not present the justification for your opinions on these matters
and
> thus choose to ignore them entirely.
"It is not worth my time or yours."
Its not worth your time to justify your own opinions? Well, as they say,
everyone has a right to an opinion, but not every opinion is right.
Or perhaps a small seed of doubt has
> been planted in the back of your mind that those anti-war protests you
took
> part in actually contributed to the mass murder of millions of Indochinese
> people. Perhaps you find this so disturbing that this is why you ignore
> these comments and inquiries. Or perhaps I have allready made it into
your
> 'kill file' Got to silence those dissenting opinions eh? Or maybe im
just
> a promoter of 'anti-communist propoganda'
>
"Nope, not a single seed of doubt that that war was morally reprehensible
from the beginning. Sorry."
As Max said, it sure was, so place the blame on the communist murderous
regime that started it, and ended up slaughtering 3 million people, not the
democratic nation that tried to stop it at the request of the nation being
invaded. Your opposition to it was it morally reprehensible by every
standard of logic and reason. Perhaps *that* is why you wont discuss it. I
would imagine it is difficult to realize and accept you were complacent in
the murder of millions. Its tough, but some have, such as David Horowitz,
and Todd Gitland (former president of the SDS) Who laments that he regrets
that he did not notice early enough or do enough to stop the take over of
the anti-vietnam war protests by communist supporters and sympathizers.
Gitland is also appaled that the recent ANSWER colation protest (was that
the one you attended?) is run by these same people. You talk of the
immorality of supporting murderous regimes, the people who founded ANSWER
are proudly in support of Ayatollah Khomeini, Kim Jong Il, Slobodan
Milosevic and Saddam Hussein. Name ANYONE in this group that stands for ANY
extropic values of any kind.
David Horowitz article on ANSWER -
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5620
Tod Gitland's Interview on NPR -
http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/fa/20030123.fa.01.ram
> "I am done with your massive intellectual dishonesty"
>
> Intellectual dishonesty? I am still waiting to hear if you feel the
korean
> war was also 'senseless' and if it wasn't, why was it not senseless yet
the
> vietnam war was?
>
"I am no expert on the Korean War. Do I have to analyze every single war to
your satisfaction to point out the absurdity of this one?"
No, but you should at least analyze 'this one' (the vietnam war) before
claiming it is absurd. You may have, but your perceptions of it are clearly
biased to an anti-american stance, considering that the US withdrawel lead
to so many murders, yet you consider our efforts there 'senseless'. The
protests you took part in (I believe you said you had) against the vietname
war by the anti-war movement were put on by communist sympathizers who
supported murderous corrupt regimes (see Gitlands Interview). Just as the
Anti War protests of today are. The fact that you either don't know this or
willingly ignore it is testament to your lack of objective knowledge on the
subject, especially considering that as an extropian it is reaonsable for me
to believe you would oppose all such murderous tyrannies and efforts to stop
them. Considering this, clearly your opinion that vietnam was 'senseless'
can only be rationally explained by assuming that you were not aware that
these regimes were that murderous, or that corrupt, or that 3 million people
were killed as a result of our abandonment of south east asia. It seems you
are under the impression that everything that was wrong there was because we
were there, and once we left, everything was A'OK. Before we got there,
50,000 were killed, after we left, 3 million were. You should examine the
Korean war if you are to hold any opinions on the vietnam war, because they
are so similar.
Regards,
Michael Dickey
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