From: Samantha Atkins (samantha@objectent.com)
Date: Mon Jan 20 2003 - 22:04:06 MST
Robert J. Bradbury wrote:
> I'm not going to get into the Samantha/Mike/Emlyn war/no-war
> rhetoric.
>
> I'll simply try to put a little personal spin on this from an "extropic"
> perspective. One of my neighbors recently posted a "No Iraq War"
> sign on their front lawn (these are very popular in Seattle which
> is generally a green/pacifist haven).
>
> I've been thinking about how one (I?) might respond to this.
>
> I like rhetorical discussions, so I'm thinking about posting
> a sign saying:
>
> 1) How many Iranians died due to the will of Saddam Husein?
How many of those did the US government encourage and aid him in
killing?
> 2) How many Kuwaitis were killed or raped due to the will
> of Saddam Husein?
Dunno. Probably far less than you might believe. How many
Iraqis were killed *after* we told Saddam that the conflict
between he and Kuwait was between them?
> 3) How many Iraqis (i.e. his own citizens) were killed due to
> the will of Saddam Husein?
Dunno. The famous gasing of the Kurds was covered up by us as
accidental deaths in the crossfire by US for a while. We even
used our armed forces to clean up the mess.
> 4) Would you be comfortable with a person like Sadaam Husein
> walking the streets of your neighborhood?
Nope. I also wouldn't be comfortable at all with Bush (Sr. or
Jr.), Cheney, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld or a host of others.
> 5) If you are unwilling to have Saddam Husein living next to
> you then why are you comfortable having him live next to
> human beings like you in Baghdad?
>
Why you are you comfortable with killing and proposing the
killing of hundreds of thousands of humans just like you?
> You may recall back a year or more ago, when I suggested what
> I thought was a perfectly reasonable (utilitarian) solution in
> the wake of 911 which was to nuke Afghanistan so as to completely
> eliminate it as a potential source of unextropic vectors.
Yes. I thought you must of come seriously unhinged after 911.
Such a proposal is as unextropic as it gets.
> I was
> soundly whacked in the side of the head for even considering such
> an option. Here is the key point -- I was at least considering
> the utilitarian perspective (e.g. the needs of the many outweigh
> the needs of the few).
>
You believe the many are served by obliterating the few by the
country full from the face of the planet? by sanctioning the
use of nukes when we get pissed off? by prophylacticly killing
millions before they can be a threat? If you really believe
these things then I certainly wouldn't want you living in my
neighborhood either.
> When you are thinking about Saddam & Iraq you seriously have to
> ask yourself whether one even gets up to that level (i.e. a
> utilitarian tradeoff). We are talking about a country with
> a population of only 24 million people and the 2nd largest
> proven oil reserves (~112+ billion barrels) in the world.
> Unless I'm doing my math wrong, that suggests that each
> Iraqi citizen is worth ~$140,000 dollars (less production
> costs). Why are not *all* Iraqis living in "palaces"?
>
> I will throw down the gauntlet here. I will assert that
> Saddam Husein is a demonstrably unextropic vector (to
> the degree that he destroys the citizens of other countries
> and holds back the development and advancement of the citizens
> of Iraq.)
>
You have demonstrated that you yourself are capable of acting as
a decidely unextropic and quite murderous vector.
War generally is unextropic in the extreme. Perpetual war even
more so.
> This problem isn't going to go away. I think if the non-U.S.
> people on the list will review the history -- the U.S. did
> by and large try to stay out of both WWI and WWII. That
> approach did not work. Furthermore, I think if one examines
> the death tolls in those wars (e.g. the trench warfare or
> the holocaust) one will observe that "doing nothing" is
> essentially writing a prescription for millions of deaths.
>
Doing the wrong thing causes even more deaths and likely puts
off our favorite dreams for at least a generation AND unleashes
a much higher likelihood of some of the nastier dystopias.
Personally I consider any future that requires simply nuking
entire countries out of existence to make "the world safe for"
as a real dystopia.
> So, to all "extropians", I ask this question --
> "how do we prevent millions of deaths?"
>
By confronting and ending the murderous idiocy within ourselves
and by confronting and ending the roots of war as thoroughly and
quickly as we can.
- samantha
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