From: Samantha Atkins (samantha@objectent.com)
Date: Mon Jan 20 2003 - 21:52:12 MST
Robert J. Bradbury wrote:
> I'm not going to get into the Samantha/Mike/Emlyn war/no-war
> rhetoric.
>
> I'll simply try to put a little personal spin on this from an "extropic"
> perspective. One of my neighbors recently posted a "No Iraq War"
> sign on their front lawn (these are very popular in Seattle which
> is generally a green/pacifist haven).
>
> I've been thinking about how one (I?) might respond to this.
>
> I like rhetorical discussions, so I'm thinking about posting
> a sign saying:
>
> 1) How many Iranians died due to the will of Saddam Husein?
> 2) How many Kuwaitis were killed or raped due to the will
> of Saddam Husein?
> 3) How many Iraqis (i.e. his own citizens) were killed due to
> the will of Saddam Husein?
> 4) Would you be comfortable with a person like Sadaam Husein
> walking the streets of your neighborhood?
> 5) If you are unwilling to have Saddam Husein living next to
> you then why are you comfortable having him live next to
> human beings like you in Baghdad?
>
> You may recall back a year or more ago, when I suggested what
> I thought was a perfectly reasonable (utilitarian) solution in
> the wake of 911 which was to nuke Afghanistan so as to completely
> eliminate it as a potential source of unextropic vectors. I was
> soundly whacked in the side of the head for even considering such
> an option. Here is the key point -- I was at least considering
> the utilitarian perspective (e.g. the needs of the many outweigh
> the needs of the few).
>
> When you are thinking about Saddam & Iraq you seriously have to
> ask yourself whether one even gets up to that level (i.e. a
> utilitarian tradeoff). We are talking about a country with
> a population of only 24 million people and the 2nd largest
> proven oil reserves (~112+ billion barrels) in the world.
> Unless I'm doing my math wrong, that suggests that each
> Iraqi citizen is worth ~$140,000 dollars (less production
> costs). Why are not *all* Iraqis living in "palaces"?
>
> I will throw down the gauntlet here. I will assert that
> Saddam Husein is a demonstrably unextropic vector (to
> the degree that he destroys the citizens of other countries
> and holds back the development and advancement of the citizens
> of Iraq.)
>
> I am not fond of Bush, his politics, his strategies, etc.
> In my opinion he is largely a turkey. *But* that should
> not color the issue of whether or not Saddam is a really
> bad actor who should be removed from the stage. Then the
> debate becomes how best to accomplish that.
>
> (Side note to Emlyn -- I believe we may be dealing with as
> bad or worse actors in North Korea so there are some significant
> prioritization concerns.)
>
> This problem isn't going to go away. I think if the non-U.S.
> people on the list will review the history -- the U.S. did
> by and large try to stay out of both WWI and WWII. That
> approach did not work. Furthermore, I think if one examines
> the death tolls in those wars (e.g. the trench warfare or
> the holocaust) one will observe that "doing nothing" is
> essentially writing a prescription for millions of deaths.
>
> So, to all "extropians", I ask this question --
> "how do we prevent millions of deaths?"
>
I hope a sufficient number of you boys come to your senses
before we are embroiled in a very UN-Extropic global war.
- samantha
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