From: Dehede011@aol.com
Date: Wed Jan 15 2003 - 06:55:01 MST
In a message dated 1/15/2003 3:19:36 AM Central Standard Time,
lcorbin@tsoft.com quotes Jefferson: "Under the law of nature, all men are
born free, every one comes into the world with a right to his own person,
which includes the liberty of moving and using it at his own will."
And corrects Jefferson: "It is patently false that humans are born
free or with a right to his or her own person. They are entirely helpless
and in almost all cases are totally under the control of their parents.
Indeed, even as they age, in most cultures they observe that the liberties of
moving or using their own persons are severely curtailed; why, even in our
own they find they cannot ride motorcycles without taking care to place the
government's head in a safety helmet. And we're among the best, historically
speaking."
Lee,
Now is that true? All of us here know perfectly well that we may not
have had freedom of speech back in the seventh grade if confronted by the
playground bully. We almost certainly didn't have freedom of speech at the
dinner table if our parents were determined to raise children fit for
civilized company.
However Jefferson was not speaking in that context and he most
certainly was not ignorant of the many ways a government can become
dictatorial. He very simply was setting forth the reasons we as adults had
for demanding to live according to certain rights and what those rights were
in general. I say in general because in the process of ruling ourselves we
would determine the specifics.
I have commented before (long since) upon the work of Clare Graves and
his hierarchy of values. Clare Graves Hierarchy of Values was an extension
of Maslow's Hierarchy made necessary by Maslow/s incompleteness.
In Graves work religion and religious thought accompanies and changes
at every level of the hierarchy.
It seems to me that Jefferson was operating at a certain level of
thought in discussing religion. As this seems to be about my own level of
thought on that subject I am comfortable with what he has to say insofar as
one man ever understands another. In my estimate Jefferson, etal, have
passed the fundamentalist level and have come to do the very things the
fundamentalist holds as hateful -- they are questioning everything the
fundamentalist holds as certain. To do this is a natural progression of
religious growth. You might compare this to the scientist that having found
out that F=MA goes on to test the limits, search for the exceptions, etc.
However, I do believe we sometimes misunderstand those founders
(Lincoln included) when they discuss religion or make comments in a religious
context. The disbelievers usually object to what would be a level four
religion in Graves' Hierarchy. I think they are correct to do so. Level
four is of course the fundamentalist churches whether they are Christian, Jew
or Moslem.
Then the nonbeliever makes the mistake of becoming a level four
atheist and seeing everything in terms of rejecting the fundamentalists.
They most especially are totally unwilling to recognize the existence of
anything else. Therefore thinkers like Jefferson, Washington or Lincoln
(there are many more) are misinterpreted or are the source of confusion.
Ron h.
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