RE: Disbelieving in belief - a variant - Postscript

From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Mon Jan 13 2003 - 19:00:07 MST


Brett writes

> It seems like your vote is "it depends".

> I don't mean to be harsh, disrespectful or unkind,

You don't seem to be capable of it in any way :-)

> but sometimes one just *has* to make a decision.

Oh absolutely. But I imagine that I score *very*
highly on decisiveness. I'm always the first one
at dinner who knows what he wants to eat, and it
drives me crazy how everyone else ums and ahs
over the delectables. I was just presenting
the factors that might influence me.

> > Your remarks about the infant Lee Corbin are pretty
> > unnecessary. OF COURSE one does not *start* in the
> > way you describe. Not even in geometry!! You could
> > try to read what is written a little more charitably? ;-)
>
> No offence was meant. I apologise if I was insensitive.

Boy, are we miscommunicating! Here I meant to reprimand
you for stating the obvious, and you took it that I was
offended. How on Earth could one be offended by your
example? Oh, never mind.

> > > In what respect are you *with me*? What do you take to be
> > > my main contention in this thread (that you are with me on)?
> >
> > Well, I think that you were criticizing those who
> > "start" from a position of faith or belief in
> > justifying their conclusions, as you wrote above.
>
> No. I'm cautioning extropians, transhumanists, free thinkers
> and anyone who I think shares my goals (pretty much the ExI
> Principles and wants to actually see them realized in the
> political world), to be aware that whenever *we* use the
> word 'belief' *we* are affirming the validity of that meme
> which competes head to head with the meme of "reason" to
> anyone who happens to be listening.

Okay, I had misunderstood you. Of course, many of us
still don't agree with your conjecture here.

> the meme of "belief". It will also be easier for us to point out
> to observers (voters) where our opponents are using the word
> belief in a completely unwholesome way if we haven't muddied
> up the discourse by using it in a different (but perhaps not
> noticeable different to the observer/voter) way ourselves.
>
> I've proposed as a practical step that we replace the word
> belief with alternatives of the same meaning in the ExI
> Principles.

Well, I haven't heard anyone second the motion, but
you are welcome to keep trying!

> > But by your use of the word "axiom" I also inferred,
> > perhaps incorrectly, that you also had a problem, like
> > I do, with those who would try to rigorously deduce
> > from some small set of principles everything they
> > believe---sorry---everything that they endorse. It's
> > not your "main contention", of course.
>
> I'm not completely sure I am clear what you are saying
> here and I don't want to speculate. Perhaps in another
> thread.
>
> > My confession of "suffering is bad" as being sort of
> > axiomatic is only that this is a meme up against which
> > my thoughts frequently bump. It's sort of a "hard
> > principle". But I've always had better sense than
> > to begin a Euclidean program on it!
>
> I reckon a Lee Corbin clone would possibly give you
> a hard time over the phrase "sort of axiomatic".

Okay, yes, I could have spent some time polishing that
sentence....but by God it would have meant the same
thing!

Look, Brett, if I had said "quasi-axiomatic" it would
have passed your filters, no? You are IMO way over-
reacting to particular words, rather than the ideas
and thoughts behind them.

Lee



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