Re: heresy for halloween = ) ...was morals
Sat, 30 Oct 1999 15:39:29 EDT

In a message dated 10/29/1999 8:59:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

<< I included heresy, as I am guessing that the motivation for your objection to my original post rests with horror at the prospect of change. >>

Dear boy, this is not a good guess! Yes, it's time to stop this, change it's tone, or take it offlist. I will tell you why. you seem to consistently misjudgments like the one above. Perhaps I am guilty of the same thing.

I asked you why you grouped the two together, condescension and heresy. You project onto me (among other things) a horror (though it is Halloween - it is a good day for horror) at change. manyh of yoru ideas I read and agree with, but when I object to something, I suddenly am a religious fanatic? Nothing could be farther from the truth, if so, why on earth would I be on a list like this, which advocates changes even the most avant-garde find horrifying! ...Like avoiding death? Hello....
{For example: I adore Daniel Dennett's work, yet I find some very fundamental
things wrong with his theory, that doesn't translate = "he is heretical."} OK Rob, check: Heresy isn't my word. You own it! For one thing I am an atheist and a humanist. So perhaps you should stop seeing me as a fictitious character and begin to ask me first rather than guess what I am thinking. Stop seeing me as an enemy! One of "them" (whoever they are) with that Book (whatever it is). I disagree with some things you say. that doesn't make me Satan. Or the Spanish Inquisition
: - )

I have never stated that things should not change, or that morals SHOULD not be something upon which the individual is left to decide. This leaves people far too vulnerable to wrongdoing oppressive systems that hurt them or let them stagnate in order to control them.

What I object to, once again, is the idea that men will do what they like and do the right thing "au natural." This is folly to assume. We seek training. We need it! We are after all, primates. And testosterone loaded ones at that! Unless you plan to upload tomorrow, or you live in a dream world, expect men to continue to f**k up, even kill each other over gold, and for other men to continue to "moralize" to attempt to change that. Yes, hopefully in new and well founded, rational ways, instead of made up goofy dumb ones like the current religions and artificial structures.

But rebelling against authority and yammering for people to be self responsible isn't enough Rob, we've got to put on our thinking caps and come up with some viable solutions. People will still act like fools. They get burned. They get tired. They seek wisdom, and a path of good actions. they ask for guidance, and then the religions step in and feed off that void.

Rules help us. Discipline is key to life. Not all discipline must originate from us. Tai Chi is a system, it gives us physical well being. Good nutrition must be learned, practiced, daily. Just like that, l moral systems can be aids in life, just as any other practice. We get better at it when we work the programs. Sure ... we must be free to choose which ones we want to use! Or... We can make our own, and we can follow them. Especially if we are futurists and dreamers, we shouldn't be demanding everyone else throw away their rules and be "free." We must offer something better! How?
We can write books, have discussions, lead classes. If they are good enough rules, people will mimic them. The problem with self responsibility is a conundrum, we can only do it for one person.