Re: Should we be developing nonlethal means of

Michael S. Lorrey (
Sun, 03 Oct 1999 23:45:20 -0400

den Otter wrote:
> ----------
> > From: Michael S. Lorrey <>
> > > [dart guns]
> > The problem with the shotgun blast idea is that the spreading
> > phenomenon. Round lead shot does spread, but not by much because of its
> > ballistic stability and simple aerodynamics. Needles, on the other hand,
> > would generate much more drag (more surface area to a given mass) than
> > can be overcome by inertia, and there will be more chaotic turbulence,
> > causing much greater spreading. It might even be so bad that the shooter
> > might hit himself with one or two needles looping around.
> That would be nasty indeed. Perhaps the good old single-heavy-
> needle approach (used to sedate wild animals) is still the best. Or,
> as a compromize, you could fire 2-5 medium-sized projectiles
> at once.

Anything not round or not spinning from rifling will tumble and loop. You don't need a needle to penetrate to deliver a drug, just use a fine shot, maybe #12 or #16 or so would do, coated with the drug.

> > WARNING: Potentially graphic descriptions of violence:
> > CIA typically relies on rohypnol, pentathol, and the other reliables
> > when it wants its victims intact. They usually only do this when they
> > want to either help someone defect, or to interrogate or reprogram a
> > targeted person. If they want to put the prisoner back where he came
> > from afterward (i.e. no visible marks), they will use a sensory
> > deprivation chamber, with hydrophones on the victim, for a period of
> > several hours.
> Hydrophones? I suppose you don't mean the notorious head drip
> method (allegedly also very effective)?

No, not the 'Chinese water torture'. This method suspends the prisoner in the middle of a pool, no light, weighted so as to be neutrally bouyant in the middle of the pool, not at the surface, not on the bottom. Air supply, microphone and earphones are provided. After a few minutes the subject starts talking to themselves "i can deal with this, this is easy... blah blah..". After about an hour or so all prisoners invaribly start whimpering. This is the point where you can start talking to them, programming them. Manchurian Candidate stuff. Apparently if you leave the prisoner in for more than 8 hours they are a vegetable for the rest of their lives...