Re: Final Challenge to Socialists

Samael (
Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:15:42 -0000

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Donaghe <> To: <> Date: 11 December 1998 15:00
Subject: Re: Final Challenge to Socialists

>---Samael <> wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Terry Donaghe <>
>> To: <>
>> Date: 11 December 1998 01:35
>> Subject: Final Challenge to Socialists
>> >In order for socialism to exist, the government must use violence to
>> >force it's citizens to pay taxes.
>> I would contend that individual citizens refusing to pay tax is an
>act of
>> theft against all people. (the basic items from which all else is
>> belonging to everyone). An act of theft can be reasonably met with
>> threat of violence to return that which has been stolen.
>Sheesh! That's a pretty circular argument there, buddy. If the money
>(taxes) belongs to the people, why does the government have to steal
>it? If the money (taxes) belong to the people, why not leave it with
>the people?

The people, not individual people. The land does not belong to any individual.

>Obviously you have very little respect for the individual.

I have lots of respect for some people. I have no belief in the rights of the individual - except as part of the social contract (ie, they too are shared ideasand have no actual existence).

> Your argue
>that both money and property are a lie. Further, you posit that the
>government has the right to steal these nonexistent entities to
>redistribute the nonexistent entities to poor people who don't have
>enough of these nonexistent entities.

Please define property. Please show that exists anywhere but inside peoples minds.
It is a useful shared idea, as it inspires people to work and to increase the amount of leisure time we have, but that's about it.

Objects exist, property doesn't. If you can't see the difference, you probably need to think about it a little more.

The government is there to act to make sure that those people who got there first, or who have the most power do not use that power to stop those without power from sharing in the objects that exist. There should also be rewards for those people who increase prosperity, efficiency, etc. This is what capitalism is useful for.