Re: Damned European Socialists ;-) (was: what happened here?)

den Otter (
Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:47:13 +0100

> From: Max M <>

> First of I must say that I find death to be the ultimate form of loss of
> freedom.

Amen to that!

> I think that being poor is the ultimate form of imprissonment there is. Just
> slightly better than death.

Correct. I'd also like to add that work is (usually) degrading too, and should be abolished where possible. An intelligent being should not be forced to spend a third of each weekday (sometimes more) in a place he doesn't want to be, doing work he hates, only to sustain himself. This comes close to torture (I'm quite serious about this). They don't call them "wage slaves" for nothing.

> Therefore I find it is fair to steal money from those who has "wealth" and
> "middle class wealth" to help those who has "powerty" or less.

Yes, as long as this money is used for automation, so that the people you help will never have to work again (while maintaining/aquiring a good standard of living). Preferably, the state should legalize drugs, prostitution, gambling etc, and start offering these services itself (perhaps with a semi-monopoly) to finance the transition from work state to auto-state. Only if this wouldn't be sufficient, taxes should be used to fill in the gaps. What we need is a national or even global "Manhattan Project" to abolish work for once and for all. Everybody works hard one last time to set up an automated society, then "relaxes" forever. Of course, there are always those people that want more than just the average. They will create their own economy, and be the driving force behind progress. People that live on "machine support" can always try to join the working class (all white collar jobs) after having received sufficient free education. Voila, the "perfect" society. Of course, this ignores the Singularity, but for the sake of argument...

> When that is done I also believe that ultimately those people should be able
> to feed themself. Therefore I find it to be a good idea to steal even more
> money from the more wealthy, to give the poor a free education.

You could still provide free (automated) education, but no longer to prepare people for some stupid, degrading job but to learn them to think critically, and provide some general knowledge of the world etc.

> And no. I don't believe that the individual investor and the invisible hand
> will automatically find a similar solution. At least not without the
> consquences being to big for the poor.

Yeah, libertarians tend to overestimate the mental capacity of Joe Average...To create a pleasant society, one needs smart people (and machines) to run the show. "Coercion" for their own good. Sad but true.

> Another thing though is the level of taxation taking place now, which I find
> has reached absurd proportions. At least here in Denmark. I currently pay at
> least 65% of my total income to different taxes! This I do find rather
> enslaving.

Not much better here in Holland :-(