[POPP] Re: Kyoto, Driving our car

Brian D Williams (talon57@well.com)
Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:38:37 -0800 (PST)

[POPP]= point of personal privilege

From: Michael Lorrey <retroman@together.net> writes:

>Right answer for who??? If you want a safe efficient little car,
>you should pay for the cost of the added safety. DOn't put the
>burden on me. So I should sacrifice my right to good vehicle
>performance just so you in your dinky little rice burner don't get
>flattened when you cut me off?? Sorry, not gonna happen.

First of all , I'm not putting any burden on you, nor asking you to
sacrifice. I was quoting a study. What you drive is your concern,
not mine, and I will defend your right to do the same.

Second of all, at 6'6" and 300lbs, it would have to be at least a
"medium sized rice burner." ;)

>That's accelerating performance. To disprove the usefulness of
>this quote, take a 98 lb weakling in the end zone of a football
>field. Take a 240 lb linebacker in the opposite end zone. Have
>them accelerate to full speed, and hit each other head on. Who do
>you think is going to be more seriously hurt????

I think your being slightly rhetorical here since Physics 101 would
suggest both would be killed/crippled. This would be the equivalent
of welding 2 York 45lb plates a 5lb and a 2 and 1/2 pound plate
together (okay only 97.5 pounds) and dropping them on your
linebackers head at 32ft persec persec from how high?

>At what cost????


>Sure one hit and you throw the entire car away. A metal body can
>be easily bent back to shape at a body shop in many accidents.
>This is another reason why insurance rates are going up. A higher
>percentage of vehicles in accidents are declared total losses than
>when metal was the norm.

composite panels are not seriously damaged at even moderate speeds.

>However, as we were originally comparing IC vs EV, and I was
>trying to compare apples to apples (production IC vs. production
>EV) and you went off on the hyperbody digression, which is all
>very good and all, but you have yet to:

We have a difference of type here, there has only been one real
production EV to date, the recent entry by GM. I considerate it a
very bad first prototype. "The regular car with an electric motor,
and a stack of batteries" is a bad idea,the new Toyota which is
just a regular car with a hybrid APU isn't much better.

> a) show any comparative studies between advanced construction,
>ultralightweight small cars hitting a moose or equivalent object,
>with a current Chevy Suburban or Grand Cherokee, or my brothers
>1/2 ton pickup truck. No matter what studies you cite, you still
>can't dispute the 98 lb track runner vs. 240 lb. football lineman
>collision, which is the easiest demonstration of what I am talking

There have been a number of studies done as mentioned in my second
post on this including a number with the GM Ultralites, they do
better than conventional cars and better than some sport utility
vehicles, I don't remember if the specific vehicles you mentioned
were in the paper I read.

I addressed your football player analogy above, but lets return to
the moose one last time. (poor moose)

The moose is 1100lbs, but 90% of it's mass is 4ft+ off the ground,
(high center of gravity) to borrow your football analogy your moose
is going to get chop-blocked by my low slung Hypercar...

Since by law in NH I can't salvage the meat, I hope at least it
will be given to the poor. After contacting the proper authorities,
I would be happy to help salvage it.

>b) An IC with a similarly constructed body would exact the same
>efficiency gains from it as an EV power train would, so using such
>construction to increase the efficiency of EVs apples and oranges.

Even a poorly constructed prototype gets better than twice the
performance/efficiency, see reference above. Advanced versions may
get 10 times the efficency.

The good news is that Rocky Mountain Institutes original paper is
now a 450 page proprietary analysis that goes for 10K a copy (okay
that's not the good news) it has also established the "Hypercar
center" and the big three commitment is approaching 2 billion.
Saturn is rumored to be already at work on it's first.

I'll get my Hypercar, and Michael can keep his truck, or maybe get
a better one.