Re: Hydrogen cars, et al. A re-evaluation from several different perspectives. [Re: QUOTE: Bey on e

Abraham Moses Genen ()
Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:50:37 -0500


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Abraham Moses Genen
**************************************************************
Being dedicated to the future progress of humankind=20
should be the prime concern of all civilized beings.=20
**************************************************************

Michael M. Butler wrote:

>I absolutely agree with most of what you say. In particular, I agree I
>could be wrong. I would search my mind for the last time I've seen a
>post where you admitted the same regarding yourself, but I seem to have
>promised unilateral non-aggression. Bother.
>
>I stand by my belief that hydrocarbon reformation at point of use
>(including *inside* the fuel cell) is the only practical "hydrogen" use
>for the foreseeable future* for most personal-use vehicles. See below:
>such use does not contradict the notion that cars may have fuel cells =
in
>them. *(Of course governments impose all sorts of impractical things on
>people; and the foreseeable future is only about five years).
>
>Re: pollution: Yes, and sort of, and no. Depends on what you mean by
>pollution. Less airborne nitrox compounds, sure. But the carbon and
>trace elements in the fuel have to go somewhere. And catalyst bed
>contamination remains a serious problem. Further, as I mentioned =
before,
>many "hydrogen economy" plans just move the pollution around, while
>_increasing_ the sum. Examples: farmed-methanol, central-site
>electrolysis with hydride storage, etc.
>
>Now, hypothetical complex-organic fuel cell catalysts (verging on
>enzymes in complexity) *might* solve these problems. I devoutly wish
>for them. But evidence of their actual commercial-quantity appearance
>remains sketchy at the present time--even though I built a
>bacteria-powered fuel cell twenty years ago. IMHO, bulk nano is the =
most
>likely way to produce such--by which time _everything else changes =
too_.
>
>AFAIK, all published fuel cell chemistries that use hydrocarbons
>function in exactly the way I describe, by reforming the fuel at point
>of use: the fuel cell. Methanol is expensive for reasons mentioned
>previously. The issue isn't purely one of how efficent the _fuel cell_
>is; it's a _systems_ concern.
>And I am extremely interested in the carbon-fiber/carbon-tubule H2
>storage systems. Nonetheless, I still think gas stations will pump gas
>(or something very like it) for a while. The energy desnity (per gram
>_or_ per cc) of 87-octane regular gasoline is hard to beat.
>
>It is perfectly possible that that fuel will run a fuel cell. I never
>said otherwise.
>
>As for the international impact of any (even a *tiny*) shift in energy
>use by the USA, G7, Pac Tigers, etc... well, that's a straw man if I
>ever heard one. Clearly people are prepared to fight over this stuff.
>People are prepared to fight over lots of things.
>
>and further wrote in part:
_and_ they have a huge capital cost and Weltpolitik
>impact as long as the primary catalyst is platinum. {Platimum trades at
>around $380 an ounce. The US is not a big world supplier. Connect the
>dots.)
>
>MMB
>--
>Dear Michael and other fellow Extropians:

I suspect that many of the technical details you have provided may be =
correct.
The use of Platinum in catalysts is another issue as well. It is my =
understanding, however, that this particular precious metal is not of =
consequence in most of the developing fuel cell technologies. It seems =
that other oxidizing compounds are available at much less cost.=20

You may wish to conduct further research in this regard to confirm or =
deny the information provided to me as of this date.

Respectfully,

AMG =20
>
>
>

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Abraham Moses=20 Genen
**************************************************************Being=20 dedicated to the future progress of humankind
should be the prime = concern of=20 all civilized beings.=20
************************************************************** <= /DIV>

Michael M. Butler = wrote:

 
>I absolutely agree with most of what you say. In = particular, I=20 agree I
>could be wrong. I would search my mind for the last time = I've=20 seen a
>post where you admitted the same regarding yourself, but I = seem to=20 have
>promised unilateral non-aggression. Bother.
>
>I = stand=20 by my belief that hydrocarbon reformation at point of = use
>(including=20 *inside* the fuel cell) is the only practical "hydrogen"=20 use
>for the foreseeable future* for most personal-use vehicles. = See=20 below:
>such use does not contradict the notion that cars may have = fuel=20 cells in
>them. *(Of course governments impose all sorts of = impractical=20 things on
>people; and the foreseeable future is only about five=20 years).
>
>Re: pollution: Yes, and sort of, and no. Depends = on what=20 you mean by
>pollution. Less airborne nitrox compounds, sure. But = the=20 carbon and
>trace elements in the fuel have to go somewhere. And = catalyst=20 bed
>contamination remains a serious problem. Further, as I = mentioned=20 before,
>many "hydrogen economy" plans just move the = pollution=20 around, while
>_increasing_ the sum. Examples: farmed-methanol,=20 central-site
>electrolysis with hydride storage, = etc.
>
>Now,=20 hypothetical complex-organic fuel cell catalysts (verging = on
>enzymes in=20 complexity) *might* solve these  problems. I devoutly = wish
>for them.=20 But evidence of their actual commercial-quantity = appearance
>remains=20 sketchy at the present time--even though I built = a
>bacteria-powered fuel=20 cell twenty years ago. IMHO, bulk nano is the most
>likely way to = produce=20 such--by which time _everything else changes too_.
>
>AFAIK, = all=20 published fuel cell chemistries that use hydrocarbons
>function in = exactly=20 the way I describe, by reforming the fuel at point
>of use: the = fuel cell.=20 Methanol is expensive for reasons mentioned
>previously. The issue = isn't=20 purely one of how efficent the _fuel cell_
>is; it's a _systems_=20 concern.
>And I am extremely interested in the = carbon-fiber/carbon-tubule=20 H2
>storage systems. Nonetheless, I still think gas stations will = pump=20 gas
>(or something very like it) for a while. The energy desnity = (per=20 gram
>_or_ per cc) of 87-octane regular gasoline is hard to=20 beat.
>
>It is perfectly possible that that fuel will run a = fuel=20 cell. I never
>said otherwise.
>
>As for the = international=20 impact of any (even a *tiny*) shift in energy
>use by the USA, G7, = Pac=20 Tigers, etc... well, that's a straw man if I
>ever heard one. = Clearly=20 people are prepared to fight over this stuff.
>People are prepared = to=20 fight over lots of things.
>
>and = further=20 wrote in part:
_and_ they have a huge capital cost and=20 Weltpolitik
>impact as long as the primary catalyst is platinum. = {Platimum=20 trades at
>around $380 an ounce. The US is not a big world = supplier.=20 Connect the
>dots.)
>
>MMB
>--
>Dear Michael and other fellow=20 Extropians:
 
I suspect that many of the technical = details you=20 have provided may be correct.
The use of Platinum in catalysts is = another issue=20 as well. It is my understanding, however, that this particular precious = metal is=20 not of consequence in most of the developing fuel cell technologies. It = seems=20 that other oxidizing compounds are available at much less=20 cost.  
 
You may wish to conduct further research = in this=20 regard to confirm or deny the information provided to me as of this=20 date.
 
Respectfully,
 
AMG =20
>
>
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