RE: Why Microsoft is a Threat to Freedom (fwd)

Christopher Whipple (
Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:38:28 -0500 (EST)

This thread was just one that I had to share with fellow web developing
colleague and programmer Ryan Marsh. He is definitely pro-MS and won't
let me upload pages to his server that aren't compatible <g>. I, on the
otherhand, take the stance that Netscape is the better browser. A heated
debate that's almost runs along the lines of 'is there a god?', I try not
to get into it that much.

It's also relevant (and a very good idea) to watch which sources are more
reliable. My friend Ryan, although well versed in ActiveX, ASP, CGI,
etc... is absolutely NOT as knowledgable on the subject as an expert in
the field such as Harvey. Consider it the opinions of children vs those
in the know.

With that I leave you...

the child :: byteboy

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:10:49 -0600
From: Ryan Marsh <>
To: 'Christopher Whipple' <>
Subject: RE: Why Microsoft is a Threat to Freedom (fwd)

That's the biggest load of bullshit that I have ever heard. His mind is brainwashed by the Rebel Alliance. As for MS products checking for piracy, I haven't been able to prove that any current products do what he said but it is possible to include that kind of functionality. I am glad that MS would do such a thing. Piracy is illegal is he supporting crime?

As for serving graphics incorrectly to Navigator, let me say the Netscape Navigator is one of the most unreliable pieces of software that I have ever used. Not only does Navigator crash often, but it processes Java applets at a snails pace, doesn't support progressive web design (i.e. the use of CSS [now in communicator I believe]or Dynamic Positioning with DHTML), it also lacks support for VBScript (something they said they'd do) to make web scripting more accessible to the programming novice (because it is a much simpler script to learn), and they should have added support for ActiveX (or tried to compete by providing tools and programming resources to developers to write plugins for its browser like MS did for ActiveX). As for MSIE posing as mozilla, I think it was a good idea on Microsoft's part so that IE wouldn't be left out in the cold by some websites. Something Netscape could take lessons on. As for rejecting a particular browser from a site, that's the first things that I
learned how to do when dealing with CGI and ASP. It isn't hard for anyone to disallow a particular browser type from his/her site.

Netscape has made a lot of stupid business and technology decisions but regardless of that, find me someone who says that they can design a better looking, more interactive website with Navigator (latest ver) as opposed to MSIE (latest ver) with out using Java or ActiveX or plugins.

As for Wintel vs. Apple I must say that the Apple computer should have taken over the market. We all know why it didn't. The Mac is easier to use (though harder to code for, hopefully this will be resolved by Java) but there are a few problems with the Mac.

Number one, it is pricey, this is because Apple took a greedy stance on licensing its OS and hardware. No competition usually means less innovation and increase in price. Don't try to tell me that a Mac for the same price as what I spent on my PC can get me Monster 3D like graphics, and AWE 32 gold sound. Macs also aren't as fast, I do not disagree that you can find RISC machines running upwards of 500Mhz but how many Macs do you see that take advantage of this for a slightly reasonable price. No thanks, I'll stick to my SGI 02 or my Compaq with dual Pent 300Mhz processors.

Secondly the Apple tried to get it self into the market by selling to schools, therefore, taking it out of the business market (except journalism and some niche markets). The logic behind selling to schools was that they would get kids used to them and then when they got out of school that's what they'd buy. They took too big a chance on an investment that would take too long to return on itself. Meanwhile, all of the serious classes in school like business classes and computer science classes were using PC's.

I don't want to build up the Wintel machine either though. Something very apparent to me is how intuitive and easy to use a Mac is to the novice. Where as with PC's "will somebody tell me exactly what all that hex shit means on a Fatal exception error? Where can I sign up for the class action law suit cuz I BOUGHT A LEMON!!!"

Maybe when NT 5.0 becomes popular in businesses "zero administration" will be a help. Hopefully it will solve the appearance of games on all those desktops we gave our employees. I think the Mac or Windows "network computer" will solve a lot of these problems for businesses.

And last but not least, MS is a great company, honest. I have worked with their guys on several projects and I enjoy it everytime I do. They are extremely professional, perfectionists, and they have THE BEST coders I have ever run across in my entire life. Microsoft is aggressive and smart. Do any of us remember the mistake that Bill made about denouncing the Internet? Now look at their position on it, people are scared MS will take over. Also, take a look at how MS used kiss Apple's ass. Apple had the potential to become what MS is today. It's all about make good business decisions.

Does this make any sense to anyone.

Ryan Marsh
WorldLink Corp.

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Whipple []
Sent: Friday, November 14, 1997 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: Why Microsoft is a Threat to Freedom (fwd)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:55:17 -0500
From: Michael Lorrey <>
Subject: Re: Why Microsoft is a Threat to Freedom

Harvey Newstrom wrote:
> Michael Lorrey wrote:
> > there's a route to take for personal choice....Or you could buy a Mac,
> > pay twice as much for the same performance you get in your PC. There's
> > another choice.
> Actually, price/performance ratios for Macs are the same or better than
> Intel PCs. Keep in mind that Macs come with built in ethernet, stereo
> sound, video capability, music synthesizers, voice recognition, and
> other items that aren't included in some PC prices.

Haven't been shopping for PCs lately huh?

> It's also hard to compare prices on the fastest Motorola or Alpha chips
> with Intel chips because Intel can't go that fast yet. If you need the
> fastest machines, the price of Intels become infinity (= not available).
> At 21:23 3-11-97 Lee Daniel Crocker <> wrote:
> > > Anbody that tries to make a M$ competing product will be aquired by MS or
> > > will be cut of with technical incompatibility tricks. That failing, the
> This has been my experience with Microsoft products. I am currently
> trying to build web pages that are standard HTML and compatible with
> every browser. I downloaded Microsoft Internet Explorer to my Macintosh
> and installed it. In the "README.TXT" file it explained that it changed
> the data format of my "Internet Config" control panel, which is used by
> all TCP/IP programs on my Mac. It them explained that other programs
> may not be compatible with the "newer" version. Basically, they
> reformatted another product's data files in such a way to make it
> MS-compatible only, and broke it for other products.

What do you mean "another products data files"? DO you mean that it made
IE the default browser for .html files for that computer? Duh, thats
merely a matter of file format association. It happens with any
application installation, they'll try to hog as many compatible file
formats for themselves and screw existing apps on the system that might
be more useful with those file formats. Microsoft is not alone in this,
its a standard industry practice. Corel did it when I installed Ventura
to .rtf and .doc files, Graphics COnverter Gold did it to ALL graphic
formats (as does HiJaak Graphics Suite).
> Another example just occurred at IBM where I work, also involving
> Microsoft and Web Pages. The Microsoft servers wouldn't feed graphics
> correctly to Netscape browsers. They claimed that the Netscape browser
> can't view the file, but that Internet Explorer can. Upon
> investigation, it turns out that the files are readable by Netscape, but
> that the Microsoft Server refuses to serve to Netscape clients. When
> one of our engineers tried to retaliate by making his webserver refuse
> to serve to Microsoft Internet Explorer, we discovered that the
> Microsoft browser will misrepresent itself to gain access. It first
> claims to be Microsoft Internet Explorer. If access is denied, it then
> claims to be Netscape Mozilla to gain access.

Here's an idea. Netscape could, GASP, do the same thing, impersonate an
Explorer browser to gain access to a MS webserver.... Gee why didn't I
think of that... I dunno, it must be because I don't work for

> There also are many examples of Microsoft products opening back doors on
> machines to allow their servers to gain access, or for their anti-piracy
> software to check for stolen products on your machine. Some of these I
> have discovered will open listening sockets on the network, even when
> networking appears to be disabled and all access permissions are denied.
> This latter example occurred with a wordprocessor program on a
> "non-networked" machine that was causing network problems for other
> machines. There was no way to open a document file without the machine
> turning on the network and communicating data about the local machine to
> other Microsoft products on the network.

I'd like to see more about this. Any system administrator would find
this a useful tool, and this data must be how many of the network
oversight applications operate. A good way to make sure your coders and
data entry weenies are working and not playing solitaire or sending each
other joke email....I'm sure my boss would like to have that capability
over me... he he...

> As a Network Security consultant, I recommend that my clients do not use
> products that deliberately sabatage other products, lie to security
> filters to gain access to other machines, or open back doors to the
> network that are neither documented or part of the product's normal
> function.
> --
> Harvey Newstrom (

As a network consultant, I recommend that others in the field find out
more about how PCs work in background operations to expand their
horizons past their Mac blindered knowledge...

			Michael Lorrey
------------------------------------------------------------	Inventor of the Lorrey Drive
MikeySoft: Graphic Design/Animation/Publishing/Engineering
How many fnords did you see before breakfast today?