On 2001.12.10, James Rogers <jamesr@best.com> wrote:
> On 12/10/01 10:59 AM, "Dossy" <dossy@panoptic.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not claiming that one can "cheat" thermodynamics. I'm asserting
> > that there are some edge cases where the "laws" no longer hold. It's
> > at the point where we learn to exploit those edge cases where the
> > "laws" of thermodynamics will no longer serve as a limiting factor.
>
> What are these edge cases?
I'm not a scientist, and have no way of proving this through
empirical evidence or anything else, but just looking at the
second law of thermodynamics makes me wonder if it's possible
for work to be done without a measurable change from potential
to kinetic energy.
By definition, it's impossible -- potential energy becomes
kinetic energy when work is done. It's how we measure these
things. However, at a fundamental level, since energy cannot
be created or destroyed (according to the first law), could
what we'd classify as "potential energy" act on another entity
without that potential energy becoming kinetic energy?
At a macroscopic level, I'm thinking of gravitational force.
Even if an object isn't moving (it exerts a normal force
against another object) it still experiences gravitational
force. There's no movement because forces cancel out, but
even with all the energy in the system existing as "potential
energy" ... that gravitational force is still being exerted.
There are similar forces at the microscopic level, but then
you'd observe that objects really are "moving" even if it
means they're just vibrating in place rapidly. So, there's
always work being done, even if we can't measure it. In a
way, at that level, there IS no such thing as actual potential
energy. Even in a system of low entropy, there's still an
immeasurably large amount of disorder even if we can't measure
or observe it (yes, this is handwaving and a big guess, but
it seems logical to me).
So, my question is: why wouldn't it be conceivable to
exploit this? Build a system that at the macroscopic level
appears to be doing work but potential and kinetic energy
is fixed, while at the microscopic level is where all the
real work and activity take place.
Yes, this starts to sound a lot like the "perpetual motion"
pipe-dream, I know. Perpetual motion _may_ be a pipe-dream,
but I don't think the concept is.
Maybe, someday, I'll learn enough about this stuff to be
given the opportunity be a scientist, and experiment, and
mabybe I'll have real proof to back up my handwaving and
wild assertions.
Sorry to disappoint you,
-- Dossy
--
Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@panoptic.com
Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
"He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
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