Re: Conscious machines

From: Steve (
Date: Mon Nov 20 2000 - 20:47:49 MST

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:35:57 -0800
From: "Jason Joel Thompson" <>
Subject: Re: An Integral Psychology

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve" <>

> I don't want to waste time on semantical arguments here ...

>Pursuant to this I'd like to strip away some of the limiting ideological
>garbage found in this conversation.

>I think you're reading too much into what I'm saying Steve. Let's try to
>keep this simple.

Assuming that everything is simple is a BIG mistake.

>.By definition, "limiting belief structures" are -limiting.- In some way.
>Now, in many cases we can objectively determine the general impact of these
>limitations and assign a general consequence to the persistence of such.

For instance:

The Jehovah's Witness' are averse to blood transfusions. JW Betty requires
a blood transfusion to live. Facilities exist to undertake the procedure in
a timely fashion. In the absence of her ability to remove and/or
"hack-around" (oh, just this one time,) her ideology, she will die.

But the Jehova Witness is making a value judgement that some things
come before life & death even, and the emotional attachment to this wish
belief in an afterlife wins out. We might think they are wrong and limited,
they think the same about your outlook.


Joe is a talented, intelligent introvert, and, like most humans, has an
unfortified self-esteem. Joe holds the belief that "doing nothing" is
better than publicly failing in the attempt. Joe procrastinates his goals.
Joe puts off that book he wants to write until "he has a firmer grasp on
it." Joe doesn't talk to the nice girl in the checkout line.

Joe's belief does not come out of thin air,, but is presumably a
based on unpleasantness of previous public ridicule/ failings.
should not be dismissed out of hand since every individual and situation is
unique. Joe might not want to be seen as someone who is always hitting on


Theo believes that a passing comet is an alien space-ship, which he can
board by means of destroying his earth-bound material existence...

How is this belief "limiting"? Mad, probably, but not limiting.

>Now, we can debate whether a particular belief structure is limiting or
>advantageous, but if we -agree- that a particular belief structure is
>limiting, wouldn't you also hold that striping away such an ideology is of

Not every "belief structure" can be intellectualised as you wish.
Empowerment may be more to do with physical energy level than
beliefs ... for example, if I have been drinking at lunchtime or am sleepy,
I just can't be arsed to do much. No beliefs holding me back ...

but we have
> may differing concepts of "belief" ... which I think of as being
> emotional/subconscious to a greater degree than they are explicit
> and articulated. The notion of stripping away belief structures is
> less valid than notions of exorcising psychological imbalance
> (through hypnosis and psychotherapy).

Well, it sounds like your saying that the notion of "stripping away" is
unfeasible, rather than undesirable. I am not a therapist, nor am I a
psychologist or neuro-scientist. So, I can't really speak with intelligence
on this topic. I defer expertise of "the means" to those in the know. You
can consider my arguments as addressing "the ends."

I do not see your oversimplistic view as having any merit.

>Desirable ends: Removal of limiting belief structures.

My limiting belief is that I am "mortal" and not superman which stops
me leaping from tall buildings ... this limiting belief is ESSENTIAL.
No need to strip anything way, just evaluate your actions/beliefs sensibly.

>Remember, personal power is not a bad thing.

So long as other humanoids do not bother me with their aggression or
political megalomania &c.

> You -are- looking to re-invent
>yourself as a posthuman entity, aren't you?

No, have been post-human a very long time already.

  Aren't you trying to defeat
>death, liberate your existence from poverty, war, hate and hunger?

All done (so far).

>Transhumanism the ultimate manifestation of the empowerment of the human?

No, the annihilation of the spent idea of "human." More than human.
Humans cannot be trusted to run the planet, they are pretty stupid on the
We are try to supersede humans, surely, and establish the next level up the
phylogenic tree.

>I'm talking about -increasing- one's drive for personal power. Not
>deflating it (like so many societal factors seem to do.)


 I think we should undertake that goal in a spirit of compassion, as I've
stated, but do not
>shrink away from the brass ring! Do not believe yourself unworthy.

Not a problem I have. I just don't altogether trust everyone else with it

>As a therapist, sometimes I find it good to
> boost the self-esteem and sense of worth of a client (ego-strengthening,
>Western way) and sometimes it might be useful to deflate the ego and stand
> back (ego-dissolution, the Eastern way).

>The ability to dissolve one's ego is -also- an expression of personal
>This is a paradox/truth.

Humility ... yes maybe what your Joe character was exhibiting?

> No, aeons ago our ancestors' behaviour was governed by sunlight
> & the primal eye, whereas nowadays our E-1 brains have infinite-state
> capability (self-organising) since they are no longer governed by the
> organic (primal eye) external clock.


Hmmm ... obviously you haven't studied solid state physics or neural
sorry if I am so far over your head. I can reference you the papers if you
are able to
read big words.


>Again, I say: "whatever." If all behaviour is "pretence," then -that's-
>behavior is. We live in a state of pretence-- that doesn't bother me. But
>is it useful pretence? Behavioral 'truth' is a pretty darn grey subject,
>wouldn't you agree?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It is overzealous evangelisers that cause
If their "limiting beliefs" get the Amish or whoever thru
life .. they aren't complaining ... it is your inflexibility/purism of
 that creates the problem here, not the poor Amish. We all live in trance!
"If it gets you through the night, its alright, its alright."

> All I am saying is (1) understand this, and (2) use it to your advantage
> writing and editing your own script, don't pretend to be a character that
> others have scripted for you. There are better things to be than "human"
> this is just a tired old legacy label ... but then presumably we are all
> after/trans-human and agree with this statement?

>Hey, you took the words right out of my mouth.

Believe me, I have considered the issues that bother you previously ...
let me ask you a question ...
I can use MVT to devise new types of hypnotic induction (mind control).
Should I use these techniques to promote my own agenda or not?

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