RE: Gore Shocks Scientists With Creationism Statement

Joao Pedro Magalhaes (
Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:43:21 +0100


At 05:20 30-08-1999 -0700, you wrote:
>I think parents should have the right to teach their children anything
>that they wish. The only "line" that should be drawn is that of
>violence. Neighbors, family, or as the last resort, the government
>should remove children from abusive parents.
>If parents wish to teach their children to hate their fellow humans,
>they will simpy raise children who will be unable to compete
>succesfully in the world. That's fewer adults for my son to compete
>with in the workplace when he gets out of college. As long as my son
>can retain the right to defend himself from satanists and nazis, I
>don't have a problem with parents doing such silly stuff.
>Besides, humans are very resilient and when the children of satanists
>or nazis enter into the real world, they will probably quickly realize
>that their belief systems hinder their interactions with others. They
>will either change their belief systems (a lot of us Extropians used to
>be socialist christians - I was), or they will spend the rest of their
>days drinking beer at the trailer park railing against god or "the man"
>or whatever.

The reason why you don't want children educated with violent principles is because they pose a threat to your survival. Sure you carry a rifle to work, but that's the American/NRA concept. I disagree because I don't want to live with the fear of being shot. Unless you are violent and desire conflict, a peaceful co-existence with other humans is always preferable. If we can make the men and women of tomorrow more peaceful, we should try and do so even at the expense of privacy. Avoiding child abuse is one way of achieving this; providing a good education is another. In addition, I concluded long ago that privacy and freedom are incompatible with some technologies we defend.

Your way of thinking reminds me of Neville Chamberlain and the millions of persons that died in WWII.

>Thank you for giving all of us Extropians an excellent reminder of why
>we're Extropians and not simply transhumanists.

The discussion of libertarianism is an old one in this list.

>You make it sound like once a kid is grown into an adult, he can't
>change his worldview. I disagree very strongly. When I graduated from
>high school I was extremely socialist and a very devout christian. Now
>I'm neither. No one gets a fair chance at competition until he/she
>enters the "real world" and has to provide for himself. Everyone gets
>that chance. Those of us who can change and adapt will and the others
>will be left behind. It's the circle of life. :)

Schroedinger wrote something like this: "Our ideas are not accepted because their opponents accept them but because they die and the future generations will accept our ideas to a greater extent than the present ones". Although I agree one can change and adapt, I don't think this happens within the majority of the population. How else do you explain religion? Notice that in Saudi Arabia the Muslim religion prevails for centuries while in Ireland its the Christian religion that prevails -- no practical changes occur. Most people in the world simply learn what is taught to them with no critical mind.

At 19:45 29-08-1999 MDT, you wrote:
>>government and the use of force; I simply draw the line a bit more
>>radically than you. Another example, what do you think about teaching
>>Satanism and Nazi ideals to young children (I assume you disagree, but do
>>you think it should be forbidden by law)?
>Just how much do you think you know about Satanism anyways?
>Are you talking about traditional satanists or Anton's Church of Satan ?
>Do you really understand the philosophy of Satanism to talk so badly about
>it? Or are you one of those Christian Ridicules?

I get the impression that you're just trying to quarrel because you disagree with me; I'd prefer if you attack my ideas and not my knowledge because even if I'm not an expert in Satanism you know perfectly well what I mean. If do you want to know, I'm an atheist and, although I'm not an expert, I do understand a bit about Satanism.