Re: [UPLOADING] Uploading v2.0

Harvey Newstrom (
Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:00:38 -0400

> Harvey Newstrom wrote:
> > This is getting too silly to continue. Are you
> > claiming that the square room does not contain
> > four walls because the walls are identical?
> No, there are still four walls. You said that if
> the two copies pointed left, they'd be pointing at
> different walls. I am merely asking how you *know*
> they are different walls.

The same way everyone reading this note can look at their own square room and tell that there are four different walls in four directions. You call them "right", "left", "frontward" and "behind". You can count them and tell that they are in four different directions, at four differing distances, at four different angles, and you have given them four differing labels. Even if the walls look identical, this same method of counting and naming walls still holds. There is no doubt that there are four walls in four locations.

> Considering their are
> two people in the room and they both share
> identical data. Since they are both pointing to
> their left and seeing their copy point to
> its right. Why is there a divergence?

Each chooses a wall and points left. Their actions do not diverge at first, because they are identical copies. However, each copy sees the arm under its own nose pointing left, while it sees the arm not under his own nose pointing right. Each copy sees his own arm pointing toward the "left" wall, while the other is pointing toward the "right" wall. The directions of the two arms pointing are in opposite directions. The do not converge toward the same wall. They diverge to different walls on opposite sides of the room. Even though their choices was the same, the results are different. Even though the agreed on where to point in thought, they actually ended up pointing in different directions because they are each pointing from a different location. If they try to move the table "left" toward the wall they have chosen, each will be fighting the other because their goal of destination wall are divergent. Each is pulling toward a different wall. Even if you can't tell the walls apart, the direction of the two pulls are obviously in opposite directions since they fight each other. Although their thoughts start out the same, they quickly diverge in result and goals and actions. They will be in conflict even on simple tasks such as moving the table or choosing a wall.

> As far as I can tell, you believe the walls have
> an independent location.

Why? Don't you? You agreed above that there are four walls. Are you now claiming that all four walls are in the same location? If you are not claiming this, why are you asking me to prove that they are different?

> I am perhaps guilty of
> "selectively editing [your] responses to eliminate
> [your] objections" because I'm trying to establish
> where our opinions differ. As I have noted time
> and time again, I believe it is in our concepts of
> location. I apologise if I can be accused of any
> arrogance or dishonesty, this is certainly not
> what I intending.

Thank you for that. What is your defintion of location, and how does it differ from mine. Does your concept of location cause you to request proof that the different walls of a square are different? Do you not agree that they are different, or are merely exercising my proof system to see how I define location?

> What makes the walls different in this test?
> How can we tell they are different?

The are distinguishable by:

- location relative to the observer
- direction relative to the observer
- distance from the observer
- angle of view from the observer
- different designations assigned by the observer (right, left, etc.)

> How do you know there are two different people?

As above, they cannot continue to think identically, act identically, and achieve identical results. They will therefore diverge in thought, deed, or experience. The two people will think differently, act differently, or experience differently. They cannot remain identical.

Harvey Newstrom                                   <>
Author, Engineer, Entrepreneur,              <>
Consultant, Researcher, Scientist.           <ldap://>