Re: GUNS: Re: Hogwash and other perverted and self serving nonsense.

Abraham Moses Genen (
Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:23:57 -0400

From: Mark Grant <>
Subject: GUNS: Re: Hooray for the 10th Amendment ???
Date: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 6:17 AM

Abraham Moses Genen ( wrote:

> I think that most of us can understand that the leadership of the NRA
> would be quite interested in supporting such an action.

Yes... that is, after all, their job.

> They have concluded that the right to bear arms is not absolute and can
> regulated by the Federal government, the States and and political
> subdivisions thereof.

You do have a cite for that, of course? I can't think of any supreme court
decision which says that, except the sawn-off shotgun decision (Miller?),
which seems to imply that citizen-units are allowed any weapon suitable
for militia use.

> The arguements as to the need for self-defense against predators in our
> society is best answered by having professionally trained law
> officials in each community.

Even when US cops are twice as likely to kill innocent bystanders as
civilians are, and when they sell guns to criminals (BATF study in
Washington DC)? Even when studies have shown that legal concealed carry
laws prevent crimes and save lives?

> I'm a bit dubious as to the need of hunters for many of the rapid fire
> arms that are readily available as well as the need for handguns.

So? Where does the second amendment mention hunting? Where does it say
that "the right to bear arms" doesn't include handguns?

> The collected cumulitive evidence indicates that most people who claim
> they need a handgun for self defense are usually incapable of using one
> under siuations of stress.

Indeed. Witness the (previously quoted) fact that US cops are twice as
likely as a civilian to shoot an innocent bystander. Taking the cops' guns
away would save a few hunded lives every year.

> They frequently end up shooting other family
> members or themselves.

Indeed, US cops are notorious for killing themselves with their service
weapons (hence the oft-quoted statistic that cops are far more likely to
be shot with their own guns than by a criminal). But if you're referring
to the notorious Kellerman 'study' I think you should read one of the
numerous critiques. It doesn't say what you seem to think it says.

> It's possible that the issue of paranoia in our society is entering the
> minds of some of you, as well as the numerous psycho-sexual implications
> of gun collecting,

You're really big on this "psycho-sexual" stuff, aren't you? Personally
when I'm holding a gun sex is normally the last thing I'm thinking of; I'm
much more concerned with safe gun-handling. Are you sure this isn't just
something you're projecting on others?

And you have read what Freud wrote about people who are afraid of guns,
haven't you?


Dear fellow extropians,

I won't go into Marks highly questionable "facts" about misplaced shots by
police officers. Particularly, when their is so much data about improper
use of firearms under stress.
I'm not particularly afraid of firearms. What I'm afraid of are all the
fools who feel that they need them and who don't choose to understand what
limited purposes firearms have.
As far as I'm concerned, the less guns we have the better off we are.

A.M. Genen