Re: Impact on History

From: Adrian `Guru Zeb` Harper (
Date: Thu Sep 13 2001 - 12:30:17 MDT

At 15:32 13/09/01, you wrote:

> >From: "Eliezer S. Yudkowsky" <>
> >My reaction, on the whole, is that people are trying to forcibly
> >make this into one of the most significant events in world
> >history. I don't think it is. Not intrinsically. I understand
> >the impulse to magnify the importance. One doesn't want several
> >thousand people to have died for something that doesn't ultimately
> >change the course of history. But I think we'll see similar
> >events in the future, and I don't think those will change the
> >course of history either. It's just a lot of unnecessary,
> >pointless deaths.
>I have spoken to survivors of Pearl Harbor who say this is bigger.
>You seem to be missing the point. This is going to be a war against
>organized terrorism, after this there may never be terrorism of the
>sort we know now. There may be isolated cases sure, but the world
>may come out from all this with the resolve to never let organized
>terrorism exist in the world again.

Am baffled at how you can possible believe so passionately in a
such a blatantly simplistic idea.
The idea of a war on terrorism actually stamping major acts of terrorist
aggression is almost amusing. But the events of Tuesday make my
reaction more sad incredulity. Like world poverty and ignorance
the nature of terrorism is multifaceted and innately fluid.
Destroy one terrorist organization and i can guarantee that within
a year or so another will spring up with the sole mission of "avenging it's
fallen martyrs" particularly when dealing with Islamic terrorist.

Am not advocating a non-armed response. Under the circumstance even
the most pacifistic natured probably understand the need for an armed
But lets not fool ourselves into hallucinating that this will eradicate the

>I'd call that significant.
>I think people are missing part of the significance of shutting
>down air travel temporarily. Partly it is to prevent further acts,
>but it is also to trap any accomplices, so we can round them up.
>They are trapped here.

Hmmmm the tiny cell that actually carried out this attack maybe trapped,
but if they organised in any way intelligently then no one of any
consequence was
still within the US as the jets struck there targets.

And when it comes to taking down Bin Ladden ( if he turns out to be guilty
which looks likelier every day )
Unless the Taliban turn him over ( which is by no means guaranteed, even if
the want too ) he will be extremely
difficult to locate. The Russians put significant numbers of both troops
and hardware into the region admittedly
taking on a much larger nationally organized force, and got nowhere.
The terrain of Northern Afghanistan is full of saw backed mountain ranges
full of caves and small communities,
which i image Bin Ladden and his followers know all too well. A small group
could potentially hide out in there for years.

> >If the US does do anything real, militarily, it will probably
> >involve more death and destruction than was caused by the
> >destruction of the World Trade Center, dozens or hundreds of bombs
> >instead of two planes, dropped on some dirt-poor country far less
> >capable of dealing with the disasters resulting from each and
> >every bomb impact, and the only real end result will be more
> >hatred of the United States. I don't expect that will stop the
> >United States from doing it anyway.
>We want the people who did this, plain and simple, and we will stop
>at nothing to get them. Anything or anybody who tries to stand in
>the way will be destroyed.
>But that's not all there is to it, we want to eliminate organized
>terrorism forever, period.
Thats as nebulous and meaningless as saying you want to eradicate world
suffering. The world will ( probably for a few more decades ) contain
groups or communities, who will resort to violence to attempt to further there
aims. As with personal violence it is the attitude and perspective that
makes some
individuals willing to use violence that really need to be tackled head on.
In order
to produce anything like a lasting peace.

> >This is pretty much how I expected the future to go. If we're
> >lucky, we'll make it to the Singularity inside the decade and we
> >won't see weapons of mass destruction used on major cities during
> >that interval. But if we aren't that lucky, I won't be surprised.
>If we eliminate organized terrorism we may never have to face these
>An idea worth dying, (and killing) for.

Easily said when you can be pretty confident of your own safety during the
ensuing conflict.


>Extropy Institute,
>National Rifle Association,, 1.800.672.3888
>SBC/Ameritech Data Center Chicago, IL, Local 134 I.B.E.W
>Disclosure notice: currently "plonked"
>"Joe Dees" <>
>"Party of Citizens"<>

                                Guru Zeb,
                           Manchester, 1989

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