Re: Paying for school

From: Brian D Williams (
Date: Thu Aug 30 2001 - 14:09:01 MDT

>From: "Mitchell, Jerry (3337)" <>

>My point here is why doesnt everyone get the legislated minimum?
>I make more then minimum wage and theres a reason. Supply and
>demand dictate this stuff, not government OR buisnesses OR unions.

My point was that before Unions came along everybody DID make the
minimum, and it was a much smaller minimum.

>This boils down to.. did the Unions distort the market. If they
>did, they created inefficiencies.

What they did was create workers rights, which didn't exist before.

>Worth $6 to whom? The company? Why are you worth more then
>everyone else? My supposition was the normal wage for a particular
>job was $3. Why cant I come in and offer to do the same job as the
>union guys at a lower price?

For the record I'm always worth alot more than I'm paid.

Because the Union guys have agreed to work only with other union

>Like someone else said in their post, the unions can bitch and
>whine all they want. End the end, Mexico will get the jobs and
>those union saps will be out of work. Thell learn they cant
>control market forces long without paying the piper.

My job isn't going to Mexico Jerry, and never will.

There are at least two completely different kinds of Unions which
is something most critics don't understand.

There are the Industrial Unions which are the ones you've been
criticizing, and there are craft Unions (plumbers, carpenters,
electricians, iron workers etc) these Unions have been split in the
past over their differences and were only recently re-united

Our work can only be done here which is one reason why we'll
remain. We also run our own schools with continuing education after
a 5 year apprenticeship. We continue to both evolve and pursue

>So in a situation where a job is needed to prevent my kids from
>going hungry, dont you think that attacking companies may not be
>the best route to accomplish this? They MAKE the jobs.

And we do the work Jerry. Fortunately many companies are more
enlightened these days and serious disputes less frequent. We try
and work together.

At our last negotiation we sat down, opened our laptops, brought up
our spreadsheets, and said something like this, " I thought we'd
begin by looking at the recent 2 billion dollar stock buy-back, the
6% increase in dividends, revenues, and management compensation for
the last three years."

We settled amicably at 3 years at about 4.5% a year

My company knows what it's labor and benefits costs for a large
share of it's workers is going to be for the next three years.

Does yours?

>I dont want to get into anti-trust law here, but I will say that
>it is so subjective, there is no way a company can possible know
>in advance of a trial, if what their doing will result in getting
>attacked for "monopolistic .practices". I know its popular to
>attack the successful guy, your right, the government and millions
>of Americans cant stand the rich and will attack then whenever
>they can for any reason they can drum up. Class warfare at its
>best, but ultimately Microsoft doesnt control the OS market as
>long as theres alternatives. They just have a huge market share
>and thats the goal of ALL companies I know of.

I don't have anything against the rich, I intend on being one, if
the market hadn't collapsed I'd already be a good deal closer to my

There are a number of people including the government who say that
Microsoft engaged in practices that were illegal. I prefer to wait
till the courts finish with this.

>My point here is to do the same thing youve been doing. You said
>we owe everything we have to the unions and thats simply not true.
>Youve said nothing positive at all about the corporations and it
>appears that the unions can do no wrong. I simply expanded on this
>approach to show the lameness of using it in a reasonable debate.
>Its a lot easier to imagine a world with no unions then it is to
>picture one without companies.

I didn't say we owe everything to the unions, I said unions were
the origin of workers rights which evolved into every salary and
benefits package around today.

This is 101 stuff, every school textbook in America has stuff in it
about the Haymarket riot. I've said nothing positive about
corporations in particular in this post because we've been talking
about the origins of workers rights, something corporations have
opposed historically at every turn.

>I will say one thing nice about the unions. If your in one, you
>can force a company to pay you over market value for your labor.
>For the consumers or the people needing jobs, sorry though, your
>out of luck.

It's quite clear that you've been taught to hate unions, and this
kind of prejudice is always difficult to overcome.


Extropy Institute,
National Rifle Association,, 1.800.672.3888
SBC/Ameritech Data Center Chicago, IL, Local 134 I.B.E.W

Disclosure notice: currently "plonked"
"Joe Dees" <>
"Party of Citizens"<>

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