> >From: "Mitchell, Jerry (3337)" <Jerry.Mitchell@esavio.com>
>
> >> Every benefit modern workers enjoy was earned for them by Union
> >>labor.
>
> >Really? I dont remember my stock options being paid for in blood,
> >or the extra vacation days above the minimum either.
>
> The operative words here are "I don't remember", that's because
> these rights and a whole bunch of others you probably take for
> granted were earned by the efforts of union members long before you
> were born.
>
Maybe then you can clarify the exact point in time and space that "Stock
options" and the days that are above the minimum were fought for and
achieved? While you at it, find out where they were forced to pay for my
relocation to a new city for this job.
> 8 hour work days, 40 hour work weeks, sick time, vacation time,
> overtime pay, health benefits.... The list goes on and on.
>
What about my company bonus? When did the evil buisness owners collapse to
the demands for this?
>
> >You need to learn that supply and demand work for LABOR as well as
> >products. If labor is short, they HAVE to up pay and benefits to
> >keep workers. Yeah, it was tough at first, but I put forth that if
> >the labor movement had just let the industries grow until there
> >was a labor shortage, you would have had the same result and
> >probably the workers would have had far MORE benefits then today.
> >By artificially extracting resources from the buisnesses, they
> >caused an aberation in the market that caused buisnesses to grow
> >more slowly, thereby preventing them from producing jobs as
> >quckly. This resulted in the balance of supply and demand of labor
> >taking even longer to come into balance. They cut their own
> >throats.
>
> Actually you'll find I understand supply and demand as well as a
> host of macro/microeconomic theory as well.
>
> Tough? People were starving to death while others made millions.
> Businesses didn't start handing out benefits from the goodness of
> their hearts, these rights had to be earned by struggle, our
> predecessors fought and died for each and every one.
>
> Their is no labor shortage if you are the only business in town
> (monopsony) think West Virginia mining town, think Hershey
> Pennsylvania, think Flint Michigan.
>
> Labor shortages are a modern problem, although skilled labor
> probably always has been, especially labor willing to work for what
> you're willing to pay.
Like I said, this "modern labor shortage" could have been reached MUCH
earlier if the market for labor wasnt distorted by labor unions trying to
artificially raise their pay rates above market value.
> Note the surge in H-1(a) visas to allow high
> tech workers from other countries to displace high tech workers
> here, holding down the cost.
>
> Early unions forced business to be competitive for labor, not the
> other way around.
Only by controlling the supply of labor by force. What if a factory was
forced to pay people 3 dollars and hour, and they were forced to do so by
the union. Then here I come in. I need a job so I tell the company Ill do
the work for 2.50 and hour. The supply just lowered the value of the labor,
but wait, they cant hire me at that rate, the union wont let them. Too bad
too, the company had enough money budgeted in to accept me at that rate, but
cant afford me at $3. Guess Ill just have to go tell the kids no food this
month. If you dought this happens, look at the people working in the
automotive companies making 50K a year for bolting on wheels. Now THATS
insanity. The work isnt worth whats being paid.
>
> >I never said that all the old buisness owners were angels, but I
> >dont hear you telling the story of how teamsters were gentle
> >non-violent protestors either. How many people did they kill or
> >maim for crossing picket lines (when those people crossing were
> >just trying to make enough to feed their kids)?
>
> What do you think was happening to the children of those on the
> picket line? Steak and lobster every night? These people were and
> are fighting for survival.
So lets just get them to throw a monkey wrench into the company machinery,
that ought to help create wealth a lot. Maybe their related to those
Luddites?
> >Everone that wants to slam these "Evil Capitalists" need to be
> >kissing their feet for providing jobs for all those people that
> >would have otherwise starved. Buisnesses no more set the price of
> >labor then they do for sneakers.
>
> I'm not condemning capitalists or capitalism, I AM a capitalist.
> But I refuse to ignore the past or current excesses of individuals
> or corporations, or the technical shortcomings of capitalism
> itself, and I continue to successfully negotiate for a fair share
> of the profits.
>
>
> Brian
>
Technical shortcomings of capitalism? Like what? The fact everyone wasnt
millionares overnight? I hope you didnt expect capitalism to magicially make
everyone wealthy instantly, it takes time to build trade up to the levels
they are now.
Let me summerize this in 2 points.
1. Labor unions OR buisnesses dont controll the price of labor.
2. Distortions in the market create inefficiencies and ultimately slow down
wealth creation.
Jerry
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Fri Oct 12 2001 - 14:40:21 MDT