Re: Expanding the "United States of America"

Date: Thu Jul 12 2001 - 04:15:12 MDT

My apologies to Mike, Brian and others whose hackles I have raised, I have reread my first post and confess that it was rather badly written and over the top.

My points are not an attack on the American people or their way of life.

Mike Lorry wrote:
> Oh, I don't know. Several years ago, during the height of the Quebecois
secession referenda, there was a significant movement in British
Columbia to join the US in response.

I didn't know about this, point conceded. My bad.

> Well, considering that no european nation recognizes the inherent rights
of its citizens to the degree that our government does our rights, I
don't see 'selective democracy' claims as having any weight, especially
considering we are not a democracy, we are a republic. The NSA spies on YOU, not us.

True, America does have far more in the way of rights for its citizens than any European country. The difference arises in the practice, during the McCarthy Era for instance, it didn't matter that you had a right to silence, several left-aligned playrights and actors were ruined by the McCarthy trial simply because they stuck to their right to silence, and they were punished for it. And as for thinking that the NSA really doesn't spy on American citizens, doesn't that seem a little strange when you consider programs such as Echelon (which does operate in Europe AND America).

> Moreover, the claim of us acting like a 'child with a bazooka,
unpredictable and dangerous' is also laughable, unless you are a
congenital hoplophobe. The US has not initiated any conflicts at all,
does not wage open war on its own people, does not commit widespread
genocide with the flip of a hat, and does not confiscate the rights of
the accused in the heat of nationalistic hysteria. European countries
make a career of doing just these things.

True, the US hasn't initiated any conflicts, but the US put an era in fear during the cold war (both America and the USSR were to blame, not just the USSR). The USA remains the only country to use a weapon of mass destruction on a civilian target (I'm not sure if you are the only nation to use weapons of mass destruction on military targets either) for the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. And as for confiscating the rights of the accused in nationalistic hysteria, how about the McCarthy Era. Also seeing as most of the situations you have mentioned occured in western Europe quite a few hundred years ago (certainly in Britain) then I feel compelled to mention the slaughter of the native American people by the US government (such as the trail of tears), the confiscation of their land and repression of their culture.

> The average idiot can also say they know that movies generally have
little connection with reality (the recutting of Pearl Harbor for a
Japanese audience's political sensibilities being a prime example of
this) in a broad sense, they are character focused dramas.

Are you saying that you deny the effect of movies, TV programs and books in influencing common belief about history. These films seep into public opinion, Pearl Harbour is probably too extreme a case and I admit it was a bad choice to quote. Unfortunately the average idiot is unlikely to regard these movies with a critical mind but rather just watch it, if said average idiot hasn't had a particulary good history education, then where does he draw his knowledge about history from. I'm not saying that a guy watches pearl Harbour and says "my god, we won" but to deny the effect movies have on public opinion is dangerous.

> Not by the news in Britain. Even the leftie labor man, Blair,

Blair is about as far left as Hitler was. New Labour, old Conservative as the saying goes.

> And he (Bush) just told you gun grabbing socialists to go stuff yourselves. I note todays headlines in my local leftie rag hyperventilate over the Bush Administration rejecting the bald faced attempt by the UN to get us to surrender our 2nd amendment....

Hey! I'm no Socialist, Anyway good for him. But you must admit, the Star Wars program is a bit mental (apparently it's going to be the most expensive project ever undertaken by Man), and my points about the Kyoto talks (Clinton partly to blame here as well) and the Chemical weapons talks (the name escapes me) still stand.

I agree with Lee Corbin on almost all of his points, it was lack of thought that messed up my message, I have nothing against patriotism and national pride, and I really can't see how any other nation could become as large and as powerful as the States without doing a better job, some would do just as well, some would do far, far worse. My point was more that most nations would refuse to join the United States in any but the most extreme conditions. While I fixated on Europe's attitude to America, I ignored our attitude to ourselves, national pride AND good old English Xenophobia is what is keeping England out of Europe and maybe at a later date, out of the USA

Also I'm not envious of the States at all, I dislike all nations equally and without prejudice (even my own) :)

J.R. Molloy wrote
> Realistically, what other country do you think might displace the US? Before the evolutionary phase transition? How about China?

I agree with J.R.'s idea. The Chinese are certainly the only other nation I can think off that can be considered a superpower now. Russia has all gone to hell but the chinese have been beavering away quietly(ish). They have the worlds largest population, a huge army, and communisum seems to work alot better there than it did in Russia, maybe because of the cultural background. Should be interesting to see what they get up to in the next 20 odd years.

Miriam wrote
> Australians who are nationalistic become a source of much sniggering. I can
hardly say the name "Bruce Ruxton" without guffawing. And how could anybody
be proud of a country that has a little twit like John Howard as prime
minister? :-D

Don't feel bad Miriam, my nation produced Neville "Peace for our generation" Chamberlain.

My thanks to James Rogers for setting me straight, I realise my first post was a duffer and I hope this one is better. Please feel free to constructively criticise, I'm much younger than most of you and need all the help I can get to get better at this kind of thing.


"Last night as I lay in bed looking at the stars I thought
'Where the hell is the ceiling?'"


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