Re: Why we believe

From: John M Grigg (
Date: Wed Jul 05 2000 - 17:23:30 MDT

Alex Future Bokov wrote:
I present (again) the Open Bible Project (originally posted and ignored). Go and mark up what *you* think Revelations is about.

Sean Morgan wrote:
Are you *sure* you want to Crit the Bible?
Revelations 22:18
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book."

As a fulltime Mormon missionary I was hit with this scripture all the time in the Bible belt. Our explanation was that if a man was authorized by God to bring forth additional scripture, than divine condemnation would not follow.

John Clark has written:
>That vastly overrated book is so full of archaic ideas, unfamiliar language,
>vague allusions, and silly stories and the hunt for hidden meaning is so
intense that
>you can find any prediction you want if you read between the lines with enough
>imagination. It's like seeing familiar faces in cloud formations.

J.R. Molloy wrote:
I couldn't get past the Introduction, where that vastly overrated book claims "gold plates" as its source. It also refers to these as "sheets of metal," "metal record plates," and "Plates of Brass." So, whatever happened to these mythical "metal plates"? Why, "the messenger called for them... and he has them in his charge until this day." How convenient! This leaves the dispassionate observer with absolutely no evidence to contradict an intuition that the entire Book sprang from the fevered brain of a misfit. This vastly overrated book has nothing to do with extropy, and everything to do with wasting paper, ink, and other resources, including the minds of children and the bandwidth of the Net.

John Clarke was I believe discussing the Bible and NOT the mormon scripture known as The Book of Mormon! Again, on my mission people would ask if the golden plates which had the original Book of Mormon text on them were in a Utah museum! I have no problem with the idea that an angel of God took them back when the translation was finished. The attempts to steal them and kill Smith were many as he translated.

There were witnesses who signed an affadavitt that they actually looked upon the plates. I am aware of the many controversies surrounding this book. I have actually read The Book of Mormon and find the stories and lessons inside to be touching and invaluable. I consider it one of the greatest books of our time.

Robert-coyote wrote:
You might clarify this by explaining why you unnecessarily conjoin belief in a spiritual reality with a belief in god, as one could have a belief in a
spiritual reality without believing in god (I do)

Partly because of how I was raised(yes, obviously!), spiritual experiences I have had, and also because of the accounts of NDE's which I give credence to.

I went over the "God part of the brain" website and have already listened to the author speak on the Art Bell show. I find it an interesting theory.

Some say the whole NDE experience is simply caused by electro-chemical activity in the brain, and nothing else. I read the web article about the researcher who allows people to be "hooked up" and experience a medically induced "nde." I was not overwhelmed by the accounts and if visiting the facility, I would tell the scientist to crank it up to FULL power!

I see this brain activity as perhaps the phenomena of our biological self interacting with another/higher plane of existance. A way for God and the next world to reach out to us.

Robert-Coyote wrote:
Yes enrapture and awe of the esthetic environment, as you say, can induce what some would call "spiritual experience", consider the scent of fresh baked bread =]

But in distinction I belive, for lack of better words... a metaphysical or extra-dimensional reality, some kind of hyperspace, that is somehow strangely effectual in this 3D world, I however do not buy into any canned prefabricated explanations, as it could be literally incomprehensible, as much as a fish in a fishbowl trying to understand a television.

I experience "phenomena", sometimes with witnesses and corroborative evidence, I seek understanding.

I found Robert's words fascinating and similar to how I feel about the afterlife/next world. I feel like the fish in the fishbowl.

Robert, what kind of phenomena do you experience? I would love to hear some accounts. How do you use witnesses and gain corroborative evidence?

I was very fascinated by Alex Bokov's open Bible project. Of course, there are already so many commentaries which attempt to either validate or disproof the Bible. So, simply as a means to get the layperson's view on scripture and their own lives I see the open Bible website as a great thing.

I read the posts by Eliezer and Ziana which were taken from the fascinating "Life and Death" website. I can see where the atheist is coming from in such a critique. But to simply say all believers are ignorant and psychologically weak is wrong. The very attitude of those lists was highly sarcastic and not conducive to meaningful dialog.

I am glad to be here and share thoughts with all of you. As I have said before, I believe in God and an afterlife, but do not have an absolutely perfect knowledge of this. And that is why cryonics and life extension appeal to me. I want to be able to see "over the horizon" of my natural lifespan to see how the world will develop.

Interestingly, there is a radio journalist who is supposedly interested in interviewing me due to my combined belief in God and cryonics. Stay tuned...

best wishes,

John Grigg

Send FREE Greetings for Father's Day--or any day!
Click here:

This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Mon Oct 02 2000 - 17:33:59 MDT