Re: [GUNS] a comment

Joe E Dees (
Mon, 07 Jun 1999 19:15:14 -0500

Date sent:      	Mon, 07 Jun 1999 16:25:38 -0400
From:           	"Michael S. Lorrey" <>
Subject:        	Re: [GUNS] a comment
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> "Joe E. Dees" wrote:
> > Steve wrote:
> > > However, and perhaps this is the point that has been lost, just because I (and
> > > perhaps some others) agree with you in principle does *not* necessarily mean that we
> > > believe your proposed solution will be effective, or that it will not have unintended
> > > negative side effects. This point has been made many times by myself and others.
> > >
> > > I (and I suspect others) harbor doubts that these laws will be effective. Economics
> > > teaches us that a demand will always find a supplier. Experience informs us that an
> > > unreformed violent criminal (insane or not) will not be greatly deterred from
> > > breaking yet another law if they're already in the process of breaking several
> > > others. I believe it is already illegal for most of these individuals to purchase
> > > guns, yet as far as I know there is no particular dearth of repeat offenders in
> > > gun-related crimes. I believe another poster mentioned Chicago, where gang-bangers'
> > > demand for guns they could not legally purchase resulted in a black market being
> > > supplied by the Chicago cops(!).
> > >
> > There is an article in the July issue of Playboy about a squad of
> > Chicago cops masquerading as bikers and gang members and
> > asking to buy guns with which to commit crimes. The firearms
> > dealers were most helpful, and in just two months, the police had
> > purchased 171 weapons for $65,000, all for the explicit purpose of
> > aiding in the commission of criminal acts.
> I very much doubt that the gun shop owners knew that it was the explicit purpose. The fact
> is that even the ATF is prosecuting the corrupt police of Chicago for the gun running they
> have been doing on a regular basis since their boy Daley took over as Mayor.
And I quote:
"One ostensible gang member asked for a gun that would "protect my spot" and that wouldn't "hang up in the heat of battle." Another man posing as a gangbanger picked out twin 9mm pistols then told the clerk he wanted to settle up with the creep who ratted him out. Obliging store clerks profferred the best hardware, from gelimpregnated bullets guaranteed not to "hit a little girl on the next block" to huge guns and shells that would "go through car dooors and everything."
> > One particularly
> > enterprizing gun shop, nestled in the midst of a suburb with a
> > population of 14,000 souls, sold 6500 weapons which were
> > subsequently confiscated by Chicago police after being used in the
> > commission of crimes.
> Where are all of Illinois' vaunted and celebrated gun control laws? Illinois is one of the
> hardest states to buy a gun in. This only proves the adage that when guns are outlawed only
> outlaws have guns. (oh, yeah, and cops too, which is apparently about the same thing in
> Chicago anyways.)
Handguns are banned in Chicago, but not in the rest of the state, which is why these shops were set up in the suburbs just outside city limits, like stateline liquor stores. And I quote: "The clerk split up orders to circumvent government registration requirements. One clerk backdated receipts, skirting the mandatory waiting period and allowing the biker couple to take immediate delivery of six semiautomatics. Guns that can be sold only to license holders were sold to customers without the official paperwork.
> > In fact, of the 32, 909 people who died of
> > bullet wounds in 1995 (cars kill more, but not many more), most of
> > these were suicides (18,503), and of the remailing 14,406
> > homicides, only 616 were ruled justifiable and the rest (13,790, or
> > about 96%) were murders.
> You fail to mention that 90% of all of these murders were actually one criminal shooting
> another criminal. I don't count that as unjustified at all, no, it is a public service.
I guess you would approve of militia and vigilante "justice", too.
> > One out of every five handguns
> > purchased in the US is used to commit a crime within four years of
> > purchase.
> What is the reference on this crap?
National Economic Research Associates (NERA), who keep track of all kinds of data on all kinds of purchased products. Gun advocates routinely cite their figures.