extropians-digest Saturday, May 17 1997 Volume 02 : Number 134
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:44:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: hanson@hss.caltech.edu (Robin Hanson)
Subject: Why?
Carl Feynman writes:
>I have done my very best to answer every single question my 3 1/2 year old
>daughter asks. This is surprisingly difficult, espescially since she enjoys
>questioning every answer with a "why?".
I was like this as a kid, so I was really looking forward to answering
such questions from my two boys (now ages 4 and 6). Turns out they
haven't been interested. Such are the risks of sexual reproduction. :-)
Robin D. Hanson hanson@hss.caltech.edu http://hss.caltech.edu/~hanson/
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Date: Fri, 16 May 97 09:57:50 CST
From: "Rick Knight" <rknight@platinum.com>
Subject: Lifespan extension and the existence of soul
Greetings all,
As I've noticed one extropian aspiration is physical life extension
which I'm all for (actually quality of life over quantity of years
seems preferable but if we shaped up our act as a society, I might be
persuaded to stay on the planet longer <G>). I've been recently taken
with the notion that it would be quite ironic that right about the
time we cinch the mortality issues and can extend physical human life
indefinitely through our technology, we will also have discovered a
spectrum of energy that could/will be defined as consciousness or,
more classically, the soul.
I've rather casually associated a metaphor of a laser with a
"self-aware discarnate entity". The laser, being a concentrated beam
of photon energy, the uses of which continue to revolutionize our way
of life and our "self", also seemingly a concentration of thought and
potent awareness. Though lasers they have been found to exist in
nature, our discovery and harnessing of them and how they work has
given us another tool in our ongoing discovery of "fire". One step up
the ladder, monkey boys! (think Lithgow in Buckaroo Bonzai). Perhaps
a discovery that self is not just an contrivance of our desperate
ego-based, and physically bound existence but more an instinctual
knowing that we have been and always will be (maybe it's something
that is a "Known" right down to the quantum level but that we can't
yet prove).
I'm presently not very well read on the myths of all cultures but in
the Judeo-Christian motif out of which many people in Western Civ have
emerged, self-awareness is the first energy mentioned in Genesis, that
self-awareness being "God" (not compelling religious discussion here)
who then spoke (vibrated) light. Archetypes, regardless of the
validity one might attach to them, are fascinating in how they take on
an iconic position in culture. Could self-awareness, of what was
primitively regarded as Godhood be just around the corner in our
scientific understanding?
My latest reading project is "A Brief History of Everything" by Ken
Wilber and his theory of holarchy (every "thing" has the
characteristics of being a part and a whole) is quite fascinating.
I'm quite busy and I read slowly (it's because I'm a writer/editor I
imagine...can't quickly gulp up concept because the structure of words
is so preoccupying my thought process) so it'll be a while before I'm
done with the book but I wouldn't mind anyone who has read the book
piping up with some of their thoughts on it.
Regards,
Rick Knight
rknight@platinum.com
"The search for truth causes some to fall into the trap of eating the
menu and ignoring the food that is already in front of them."
--unknown or maybe it was me...
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:41:10 -0400
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com>
Subject: is the world going to hell?
> From: "ard" <rbrown@smb.sams.ch>
>
> > From: John Blanco-Losada <jbl@clark.net>
>
> > Digging beyond the gut-level response, I'll admit that I had reservations
> > for many years about bringing a child into the world. Look around - the
> > forces of big government seem to be entrenched around the world, children
> > are being shot on the streets and in schools, couples are having to work
> > harder to make ends meet, etc. I could go on and on. It seems like the
> > world is going down the toilet, and that things just aren't as good as
> > they were when I was growing up.
>
> We have none of that where we live. Merchants take a two-hour
> lunch and leave their outdoor displays and goods in place,
> unguarded. The stores leave such things as fertilizer, wood,
> potting soil outside, unguarded at all times.
I must say that even here in New York City, life isn't too bad. The
continues to be run by socialists, but crime is not a particular day
to day worry (the murder rate is down to mid 1960s levels), work is
plentiful, and rent control may even end on June 15th if the
Republicans in the State Senate have the balls to go through with what
they've threatened -- if rent control goes away, housing prices will
likely drop and the city will probably experience a renaissance of
sorts.
In general, I'm optimistic. Unlike any other time in human history,
there is a low but good chance that we'll solve the aging problem
before I drop dead, and I'm signed up for cryonics just in
case. Business prospects for thinking people are better than ever
before, and money nearly litters the streets provided you have the
brains to pick it up.
The odds of global thermonuclear war are down (although the odds of
nuclear terrorism are up), and technology continues to develop
unabated, leading to interesting results for all of us within fifty
years or so.
All in all, a good time to be alive.
Perry
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 19:58:31 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Eugene Leitl <Eugene.Leitl@lrz.uni-muenchen.de>
Subject: BIBL: oldies, but goodies
David Bohm, "Wholeness and the implicate order", Ark paperbacks
ISBN 0-7448-0000-5 (1980, Reprinted 1984 and 1985).
The precursor of sundry QM & QM mind treekillers.
W. Ross Ashby, "Design for a brain", Science paperbacks,
ISBN 0 412 20090 2 (1952, Reprinted 3 times, 1978).
Pre predigital electronics. Cool introduction on system dynamics, though.
ciao,
'gene
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:24:08 -0400
From: Crosby_M <Crosby_M@bls.gov>
Subject: RE: Lifespan extension and the existence of soul
Rick Knight wrote:
<I've been recently taken with the notion that it would be quite
ironic that right about the time we cinch the mortality issues and can
extend physical human life indefinitely through our technology, we
will also have discovered a spectrum of energy that could/will be
defined as consciousness or, more classically, the soul.>
Synchronistically interesting: I just finished reading the online
excerpts from physicist/author Fred Alan Wolf's 9611 book, _The
Spiritual Universe: How Quantum Physics proves the Existence of the
Soul_, which you can find at
http://www.hia.com/hia/fredwolf/su-home.htm
I found Wolf's notions appalling, to put it politely, but it's
definitely along the lines you mentioned.
Mark Crosby
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:04:16 -0400
From: Crosby_M <Crosby_M@bls.gov>
Subject: Distant Gamma Ray Burster Nailed
On Wed, 14 May 1997, Robin Hanson forwarded a message called "Caltech
Astronomers Crack the Puzzle of Cosmic Gamma-Ray Bursts" which noted:
<Competing theories on gamma-ray bursts generally fall into two types:
one, which supposes the bursts to originate from some as-yet unknown
population of objects within our own Milky Way galaxy, and another,
which proposes that the bursts originate in distant galaxies, several
billion light-years away.>
The message added:
<The results demonstrate for the first time that *at least some* of
the enigmatic gamma-ray bursts that have puzzled astronomers for
decades are extragalactic in origin.>
Emphasis mine. There seems to be a healthy competition of ideas in
this area. For example, the following comes from a 3 May 97 Science
News article called "Milky Way's Heart Gushes Antimatter " and can be
found at
http://www.soundprint.org/sn_arc97/5_3_97/fob1.htm
<New observations suggest that the heart of our galaxy pumps a
fountain of antimatter and hot gas into the tenuous halo of material
lying several thousand light-years above it. The discovery could
dramatically alter astronomers' view of the Milky Way and how the
hotbed of activity at the galaxy's center influences its farthest
extremities. The fountain "provides a conduit between the galactic
center and distant parts of the galaxy," says gamma-ray astronomer
Charles D. Dermer of the Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) in
Washington, D.C. "This high-altitude feature . . . reveals how the
core regulates the rest of the galaxy.">
Sounds to me like these gamma ray emissions may be just a normal part
of galactic dynamics.
Mark Crosby
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:33:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: rpeck-l@rpeck.com
Subject: how to raise a successful, Extropian child
On Wed, 14 May 1997, John Blanco-Losada wrote:
> Along those lines, does anyone have any suggestions for how to raise a
> successful, Extropian child? Are there any particularly good books, web
> sites, etc. out there?
Since I am also expecting my first and only biological child, I am also very
interested in this question. Newsweek has a special issue out now on child
development, which has an overview of a number of recent breakthroughs in the
study of infant brain development. Things like, during a certain age period,
the brain wires itself for recognizing phonemes. People who are raised in
households with different languages use different parts of their brains when
hearing the same phonemes. The example I've seen is differences in brain
activity when hearing the "r" and "l" sounds, between english speakers and
Japanese speakers. In the former, the brain lights up in a couple physically
distant spots, while in the latter it doesn't.
It's becoming clear that from 0 to 3, the brain gets wired in many different
ways, and this early wiring is both critical, and (so far as we know)
irreproducible. Pretty damn amazing stuff, and the article is highly
recommended. As the date approaches, I'll be searching out the primary
sources.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"An idea that is not dangerous is unworthy of being called an idea at
all." - Oscar Wilde
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:01:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: T0Morrow@aol.com
Subject: PHIL: "Why Respect the Law?" uploaded
Want some intellectual ammo to combat statism? Check out the (finally)
uploaded version of my paper, "Why Respect the Law? The Polycentric
Justification of Jurisdiction". I originally presented the paper at Extro1.
You can now find it at:
http://members.aol.com/t0morrow/T0Mpage/PolyJust.HTML
Load up and go get 'em!
Tom
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:37:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: CALYK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Lifespan extension and the existence of soul
In a message dated 97-05-16 12:56:59 EDT, you write:
<< Though lasers they have been found to exist in
nature >>
Where have these been found? How do they form? Where can I find more info
on this?
thanks
danny
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 19:46:54 +0000
From: "my inner geek" <geek@ifeden.com>
Subject: SOCIETY: Upcoming Conference
I wonder what kind of Extropians memes will be presented at the
"Global Knowledge 97" conference next month?
See http://www.globalknowledge.org/.
The sponsors list is an interested "what's what..", but the "who's
who..." seems to be a bit veiled behind the institutional identities.
See http://www.globalknowledge.org/graphics/sponsors.html.
May I suggest that a few enterprising Extropians create a
distribution list containing the e-mail addresses of those
individuals who represent the various institutions.
This is clearly an opportunity to inject some memes at a critical
point in the "learning trajectories" of these organizations.
my inner geek
geek@ifeden.com
http://define.com
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:48:54 +0000
From: Damien Broderick <damien@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: RE: Lifespan extension and the existence of soul
At 03:24 PM 5/16/97 -0400, Mark Crosby wrote:
> Fred Alan Wolf's 9611 book, _The
>Spiritual Universe: How Quantum Physics proves the Existence of the
>Soul_, which you can find at
>http://www.hia.com/hia/fredwolf/su-home.htm
>I found Wolf's notions appalling
Yes indeed, as always. Aside from the silly pseudo-theories, Wolf
promulgates the standard evil meme about science and objectivity:
`My physics knowledge is
both a gift and a curse in so far as it is needed to define the spiritual
universe and its agent, the soul.
The gift is that I see, objectively, how much of the physical universe
works. That perspective gives
me a certain peace of mind that the universe is not an accident and that
human life is meaningful and
purposeful. The curse is that when it comes to seeing essential matters of
the heart, subjectively, I
often see nothing. My scientific mind habitually takes over and I become
skeptical and unfeeling.'
When I read this kind of libel, my (lay person's) scientific mind
habitually takes over and I become skeptical and filled with passionate
intensity.
Damien Broderick
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:01:37 +0000
From: Damien Broderick <damien@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: RE: Lifespan extension and the existence of soul
Aargh. A brief correction to what I just posted to the list:
My Eudora mailer appears to have turned my cut&paste of Fred Alan Wolf's
prose drivel into a kind of faux verse, thus (assuming it arrives at other
people's mailers in little jagged lines):
>`My physics knowledge is
>both a gift and a curse in so far as it is needed to define the spiritual
>universe and its agent, the soul.
>The gift is that I see, objectively, how much of the physical universe
>works. That perspective gives
>me a certain peace of mind that the universe is not an accident and that
Just thought I should mention that he *didn't* write it like that!
(Although people pushing such views often do seem attracted to
pseudo-poetry...)
Damien Broderick
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:56:41 -0700
From: Max More <maxmore@primenet.com>
Subject: PHIL/PSYCH: New Dynamic Optimism essay
At 11:32 AM 5/16/97 +0200, you wrote:
>
>> So now I try to invoke my Extropian dynamic optimism.
>
> EDO is a great tonic too! A real pick-you-up! And it can be infectious!
That's perfectly timed as a lead in to this! --
Last year I completely rewrote and revised my original (1990) essay on
Dynamic Optimism (from Extropy #6). The new version, which identifies
twelve characteristics of dynamic optimists and suggests several
psychological principles for achieving dynamically optimistic thinking, I
had intended for a book. However, the book I'm now working on -- THE
AUGMENTED ANIMAL -- is something quite different. Rather than keep this
D.O. essay sitting on my hard drive feeling lonely I've added it to the ExI
web site.
You can find it either by going to the main page, then finding it in the
Ideas section, or by going directly to:
This new version should be accessible to a wider readership, since it was
written with that in mind. It's not so drily philosophical.
Max
Max More, Ph.D.
more@extropy.org
http://www.primenet.com/~maxmore
Author: The Augmented Animal (Forthcoming: HardWired, 1998)
President, Extropy Institute, Editor, Extropy
exi-info@extropy.org, http://www.extropy.org
(310) 398-0375
EXTRO 3 CONFERENCE on the future: http://www.extropy.org/extro3.htm
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End of extropians-digest V2 #134
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