Re: ULE: covert vs overt

From: Anders Sandberg (
Date: Thu Apr 19 2001 - 03:14:41 MDT

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:39:01PM -0700, Spike Jones wrote:
> Ive been an openness advocate in the past, but recently very
> quiet on this issue. I originally theorized that increasing
> transparency would result in a more permissive society.
> I have seen no clear evidence our society is getting more
> permissive, altho it is certainly getting more transparent.
> I can't tell the UK is getting more permissive, altho I hear
> it is becoming more transparent at a faster rate than the U.S.

There is a difference between transparency and openness. If only a
certain group has access to the cameras and customer databases, there is
no reason for society to become more permissive. Instead there is likely
a stronger social control, since "they" know and you don't. On the other
hand, if people in general have the cameras and can use them to check
each other, then at least some of the rigid information inequality
vanishes. It still doesn't make society necessarily more permissive (as
Brin put it, imagine knowing that your mother is able to check what you
are doing with who in your bed), but at least it allows it to a larger

Anders Sandberg                                      Towards Ascension!                  
GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y

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