CRYONICS: Limits to storage & JUPITER BRAINS [was: Where to look for the answers...]

From: Michael LaTorra (
Date: Fri Apr 28 2000 - 20:44:16 MDT

Previously in this thread:

Spike Jones:
Resuscitation from cryonic storage stage has
no time limit that I know of, and the tech to freeze and store is with
us already.

In principle, the time limit for storage in liquid nitrogen is virtually
unlimited (meaning in the range of millions of years before quantum flux has
any discernible effects). But I am not so sure that current suspension
techniques provide adequate protection against cellular damage due to ice

In response Robert J. Bradbury wrote:
The limits on cryonic storage are much less than those discussed
(quoted above). Robert Freitas has done a paper on this and
the draft version placed limits of 500-1000 years cryonic
suspension before endoradiation would become a significant
factor. Currently the paper is being reworked to take into
account radiation from the carbon in the histones, so those
limits may be revised downward. Counter to that is the
possibility of syn-genome replacement based on the methods
of genome fragment reassembly (pioneered by TIGR).

As I've stated before, and I'll state again, the limits on
cryonic reanimation would appear to be fundamentally based
on the question of whether or not the freezing process causes
loss of positional information that could prevent 3D-reassembly.
Given the size of synaptic and cellular structures, I strongly
doubt that to be the case. These are hundreds of thousands to
tens-of-millions of atoms in size. They are only going to match
up in unique places. Only if you unfreeze the brain and let it
decay away into a molecular soup have you lost that information.

Thanks, Robert. I had not considered the fact that unstable isotopes within
the frozen body would slowly damage surrounding cells. Is carbon-14 believed
to be the main culprit?
  Regarding loss of positional information, you indicate that ice damage
should not be an insurrmountable problem because of the small size of
synaptic and cellular structures which should match up uniquely. But are
these truly unique? Or are there merely very many permutations? Perhaps like
snowflakes, there are huge numbers of different configurations, but there is
still some duplication because of the still larger number of instances.

Regarding a Tiplerian resurrection/emulation, Anders Sandberg has pointed
out that, short of Tipler's Omega Point, a similar resurrection/emulation
could be possible via AI superobjects (Jupiter/neutron star size/density AI
brains) albeit for a less than universal coverage of the deceased. (How do
we get on the resurrection/emulation waiting list? Maybe this Extropians
list is IT!)At this point in time, I'd rate Anders' idea as the more likely
of the two.

Being a fav subject of mine, I would also suggest that the Jupiter Brain
emmulation concept, conjectured by Roboticist, Hans Moravec is also in the
works, as it utilizes
a neutron star as the the source of computation. I believe the bit-stream
such a emmulation of the entire earth history is well bellow the estimated
10^60 bits per second that a small neutron star is supposed to be capable
 Another extreme is the Max Tegmark Ensamble of Universes, and that deserves
its own mailing list-which surprisingly there is.

Could you save me a few keystrokes amd give me the URL/subscription info for
Max Tegmark and the list? Thanks.

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