Re: Didn't need no welfare state (barbarians at the gates)

From: john grigg (
Date: Wed Apr 19 2000 - 14:59:26 MDT

Emlyn wrote:
If all births were planned, we'd be extinct (that's not mine,
obviously).What would western population demographics look like if only
those who could "afford" kids had them? Disastrous! And, our countries
would be sad places containing only the aging, the kind of mockery of human
existence that seems to stem again and again from economic rationalist

Emlyn, a very fascinating thought. There are those parents who cannot
"afford" kids in terms of having both them and a number of material luxuries
also. So they scrape by, but still have food and shelter.

Then there are those parents(and especially single moms with a deadbeat dad)
who simply cannot afford taking care of the material needs of their
children, period. And so the state must help or serious neglect would

Japan is a great present example of a nation that foreshadows what is going
to happen in the U.S. and europe. They are "overrun" by seniors and have
even thought of building communities "on the cheap" for them overseas! I
hope none of us wind up in a nursing home in Mexico, circa 2050(I'll be
82!)!! lol

you continue:
Oddly enough, many of the same people who don't want to foot this bill seem
to be those who aren't too interested in immigrants. White people are going
to turn up in history books (databases, yeah yeah) as curiosities; stomped
others all over the globe, made everyone else's lives hell, then just when
they looked like a real problem, they just stopped procreating. Couldn't be
bothered. Maybe instead of getting cranky with those poor people who breed
all over the place, we could educate their kids. For purely selfish reasons.

What people want are the "right" kind of immigrants. The exemplary types
who work hard, stay off the dole and push their children to excel in school.
  Certain asian peoples come to mind as I type this. But even some asian
immigrants are of the "other" type. Of course, some of these immigrant
resisters don't want immigrants that are the wrong skin color or/and
culture. They should realize that through cultural assimilation (we are the
Borg, you will be assimilated!!) this does not matter that much.

I respect the desire for people to prize and maintain their own native
culture and language. But assimilation at least to a certain extent is
important. I see some immigrant communities that fight this and don't even
want to learn english or deal with the outside world any more then they have
to. Despite this, their youth in the teen years tend to be sucked into the
greater world (especially material and western pop culture world with its
advertising siren call) and at least partially assimilated.

I remember when I was in highschool in the late eighties. The asian gals
were so quiet and studious. I could not imagine them any other way. A
decade later I visited my highschool to see my younger brother and I was
shocked by the changes in the majority of asian females who walked the
halls. In terms of dress and demeanor there was very little difference
between them and the other students. Loudness, outrageous dress and the
other American teen qualities had been absorbed only too well. What the
parents must be going through!

I read a long time ago "The Birth Dearth" which at its time of publication
created quite a stir. I found the message of the book ironic after
experiencing years of 'brainwashing' in school which told me that even in
the United States, population growth was totally out of control and we all
had to have fewer children! lol Perhaps a new message should be given to
college students, that they need to be having large families! lol! This
message is actually given at colleges owned by the Mormon church. But even
there the eight child family has given rise to the much more common four
child one.

A key to British economic power in the victorian age I believe, was that
couples waited longer to marry and have children. The focus was on
acquiring the wealth to be ready to have a family first. And when they did
marry that had far less children then what had been the case in generations
past. It seems this behavior has only continued into our age with
professional working mothers who use cutting edge medical technology to try
to make up for the lost years when they were at the height of their
fertility, but at that time felt the need to get ahead in careers without
the impediment of children.

Back to your original statement, I think those of european stock are giving
up their demographic strength for material rewards. Could this show a
spiritual and cultural decline? Chairman Mao once said "we nonwhites
outnumber whites nine to one, let us destroy them!" What a sweet guy. lol

But it is memes and not race that is the key thing now that transforms our
world. Anders pointed this out in his response to those folks at the
AdAstra list. They were appropriately horrified.

In modern Italy(home of the vatican ironically) they have the lowest
birthrate in Europe! I think the young women may have gotten a little too
fed up with the examples they saw growing up. Any thoughts Serafino? I
have heard some say we are going the way of ancient Rome, but then we are
not an empire that prides itself in just one racial and ethnic stock.

Of course, among immigrants here, you will see family size go down as they
are assimilated into the culture of materialism. And on a global scale, in
the third world you will see birth rates go down as things improve, which is
the rule. So in time we will see the whole global population stabilize by
roughly the mid 21st century. The United States should have a population
roughly double what it has now by then, and this will be done largely
through immigration.

I agree that in the U.S. and the rest of the first world we must properly
educate these immigrant youth (as well as our native born). The problem is
that education starts with a good homelife, and that is missing from so many
families. And can government really intervene here? lol And also, the U.S.
school system is lacking in so many ways to turn out students that are
solidly grounded in academics and ethical values. Organized religion
anyone?? :) If not Catholic, Baptist or Mormon(among others), send those
kids off to a Unitarian church! I realize we have already had this

The year 2040 is going to have ALOT of old folks in the U.S. unless biotech
is so advanced we can rejuvenate 'em all! I hope so Robert! But remember,
as the classic saying goes "every civilization is just twenty years away
from barbarism." Meaning every civilization has roughly twenty years to
properly rear their babies into successful adults. If not, they have
barbarians roaming the streets of their own making.


John Grigg

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