Re: Hiveminds and the Great Filter

Pat Fallon (
Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:15:04 -0500

Michael S. Lorrey wrote:

> Pat Fallon wrote:
> > Spike Jones wrote:
> >
> > > Pat Fallon wrote:
> > >
> > > > If quasars are nearby, they may even exhibit proper motion in the sky as the
> > > > Earth travels around the sun. Such a proper motion has been seen. See Quasar
> > > > Absolute Proper Motion
> > > > [] for a table that includes
> > > > such proper motion observations."
> > >
> > > Proper motion of quasars? Surely you jest, Pat. Experimental error. spike
> >
> > Maybe. I only recently started looking into alternatives into the BB,But here are
> > some links for further info on absolute motion of quasars:
> Since WHEN have quasars been considered to exist within our own galaxy?
> Everything I've ever heard said they are distant extragalactic objects that put out
> the energy of hundreds of thousands of stars.

"...the astronomical community still persists in assuming that the redshift is a valid distance indicator from which they incorrectly deduce that quasars are extra-galactic...The problem is that if the quasars are at cosmological distances the rapid intensity variations appear to require unacceptably large energies [e.g. Pauliny-Toth,I.I.K., Kellermann,K.I.: 1966, Astrophys.J. 146, 634] ... The reason for this is that, if, as has been commonly assumed, significant fluctuations in intensity cannot occur in times less than the light travel time across the source without 'blurring' the observed variation, then the observations put a limit on the linear dimensions typically of the order of one light year. If the quasars are at cosmological distances, then this corresponds to angular sizes well under 10^-3 arcsec and magnetic fields less than 10^-5 G. In such weak fields, the energy in the form of relativistic particles required to explain the observed radio emission is then typically greater than 10^58 erg generated in one year or less. Even in these days when violent events in quasars and the nuclei of galaxies are commonly accepted, the thought of energy generation at the rate of 10^51 erg/sec lasting one year or more seems too fantastic for most to accept. For this reason, it was suggested that quasars were not at cosmological distances ..."


Varshni,Y.P., Talbot,J.P.: 1995, unpublished notes.

A careful search through Luyten's (1969) proper motion survey for quasars from the Hewitt and Burbidge (1993) catalog reveals that the bright quasar TON 202 (QSO 1425+267) has a proper motion of 0.0530.016 arcsec/year, about the same motion as NGC 7293 or Helix. A previous search of this catalog by Varshni (1982) found 30 quasars, 3 of which had very large proper motions. A more recent search uncovered 10 more quasars, including TON 202. The proper motion of TON 202 is perpendicular to the orientation of it's radio lobes (Rogora et al., 1986). If it is truly as far as it's redshift implies (z=0.362) it's tranverse velocity would be of the order of one thousand times the speed of light, a clear indication that the cosmological redshift hypothesis is completely untenable. Which leads us to conclude that this quasar is a star within our galaxy (Varshni, 1973, 1974a, 1974b, 1975, 1979, 1982, 1988) the strong optical emission lines are due to recombination laser action in a rapidly expanding stellar atmosphere. This is by no means an isolated case : Kron and Chiu (1981) have discovered QSOs with large proper motions one of them significant to 7 sigma. These facts explain the failure of HST to detect 'host galaxies' around many QSO. Considering the brightness of TON 202 (V=15.63), confirming the large proper motion should not present any particular observational difficulties with present day CCD equipment.


   1.Hewitt,A., Burbidge, G.: 1993, ApJ.Suppl., 87, 451.
   2.Kron,R.G., Chiu,L.-T.G.: 1981, Publ.Astron.Soc.Pacific, 93, 397.
   3.Luyten,W.J.: 1969, 'A Search for Faint Blue Stars' Paper 50, Univ. of Minnesota
     Observatory, Minneapolis.
   4.Rogora,A., Padrielli,L. and de Ruiter,H.R.,1986, Astron. Ap. Suppl., 64, 557.
   5.Varshni,Y.P.: 1973, Bull.Am.Phys.Soc.,18, 1384.
   6.Varshni,Y.P.: 1974a, Bull.Am.Astron.Soc., 6, 213.
   7.Varshni,Y.P.: 1974b, Bull.Am.Astron.Soc., 6, 308.
   8.Varshni,Y.P.: 1975, Astrophys.Space Sci., 37, L1.
9.Varshni,Y.P.: 1979, 'The physics of quasars', Physics in Canada, 25, 11. 10.Varshni,Y.P.: 1982, 'Proper Motion and distances of quasars', Speculations in science and

technology, 5, 521.
11.Varshni,Y.P.: 1988, Bull.Am.Phys.Soc.,33, 1184. 12.World Wide Web site with related papers and data at

The mean error in the existing measurements of the proper motions of quasars are rather large. Any
conclusion on this question is subject to this important qualification. In most of the reported cases, all
that we can say is that the proper motion is about or less than 0.015 arcsec/yr.

Pat Fallon