Re: Extropianism & Theology
Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:24:50 EST

In a message dated 99-02-25 13:40:12 EST, you write: writes:
[human-to-Borg-to-God scenario]

> At this point it/they is/are God. Sort of
> like the Borg with firewalls, and much better looking. More like the Q
> Continuum.

I buy this. This sounds like a great future, well worth striving for. The danger is thinking it is inevitable - if we do that, then we think that we don't need to do much, and eventually nothing gets done. But if we see it as a goal, something noble to strive for (in its many varieties) in a rational manner, then we have a chance of getting there.

Important point Anders. It is worth striving for and we do have a chance of getting there. You have a much better chance of getting to where you want to be if you aim for it. It is the main reason I've founded a church, to institutionalize this directed striving. I have children and grandchildren who's well being in the future greatly concerns me.

> Having control of time means that God is operating now and was
> operating in the past, therefore we can gain knowledge of God by
> studying the nature of the universe. This study I say is worship,
> and is the only worship God expects. He most certainly doesn't
> expect us to prostrate ourselves at his feet.

This is the part I don't buy. Note that you assume time travel, which is a rather big assumption, and also that God will exist in this way, which is another big assumption. It would be nice if it was true, but there are no particular reasons to think that these assumptions hold true.

Thanks Anders. This scenario fails when time travel is proven impossible. I see this as a fifty fifty proposition, but still worth striving for. Regarding the nature of God... I think this is up to us. He will be how we make him to be, for good or for bad. I want to make sure He's good, another reason to institutionalize these aspirations.

> In fact. I believe God expects us to join the community of gods that is
> when we're good enough, when we deserve it. Frank Tipler tells us how we
> all be brought back to life in the massive computers of the future. I
> think the Omega Point is integral to this theory, so it doesn't matter if
> Universe will crunch or not.

Well, Tipler did manage to show some interesting limitations on posthuman omniintelligences (or whatever to call the things that are SI to SIs), and without an OP they will still be finite - immense, but with a finite lifetime, computational ability and memory. On the other hand, if you allow time travel you can likely do tricks that make the Bekenstein bound break... but it is a big assumption to make.

Anders, I think this assumption is still worth making. I like the results.

> God is our descendent and his nature is an extension of ours.
> We must be worthy!

And Man created God in his image who created Man in his image who created...

Ah, The Church of the Fixed Point: our reality and human nature is the only consistent fixed point for the above process. The Church spends lots of time iterating immense dynamical systems on the holy computers trying to calculate the parameters of love, truth and sacredness. They have already found truth to two decimal places...


Ha Ha. The Strong Anthropic Principle taken to the absurd. None-the-less, worth striving for.

Hoping not to bore you, let me tell you a little about myself and how this goal of mine came to obsess me.

I am a 54 year old businessman and Viet Nam era vet (sorry, Viet Nam is how it was spelled there). I am not a scientist like most of you guys. Long ago, I studied Materials Science for three years at MIT but never finished it.

I am trying to make my third marriage work and have a son (31) and daughter (4) who I adore.

My body has been insulted by a tumor on my brain and diabetes. My spirit was shattered by the death of my father 6 years ago.

Must life be so painful for us? Must their be no recognition for the existential heros we all must be to function throughout a normal lifetime? Is there no reward for being a dutiful soldier?

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think a well designed modern, scientifically grounded religion should and must minister to these needs, for everyone!! Who else will?



 Anders Sandberg                                      Towards Ascension!                  
GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y

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