Re: PHIL: The (im)moral state

Arjen Kamphuis (
Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:38:29 +0100 (CET)

Hey Mike, I think we should stop this nationalistic country-bashing-thing
(it's gone a bit out of control I think ;-). You love your country and I
like mine too so to prevent both of us ending up in kill-files why don't we
call it quits for a while. I'll have one more and then you can have one
more and that'll be the end of it OK? I don't think either one of us is
convincing anyone here.

At 14:00 24-03-98 -0500 Michael Lorrey <> wrote:
>Of course that means that most people
>left there have a greater herd tendency than people here.

Nothin' like a good 'ol generalisation to explain how the universe hangs
together I say! That explains nicely why most european countries have five
times as much political parties as the US that participate in national
Are you claiming that political prefferences are genetic? Interesting...

>Of course I'm not familiar enough with the Dutch gov't to judge in this
>particular case, but typically all a govt agency does when it hires a
>contractor to do a job is figure out as many ways to make the job as
>difficult and expensive and convoluted as possible, as well as giving
>every other ministry an open season to pile on more requirements.

??? On how many national Gov's is your opinion based? Any other than the US?
I guess that due to our 'herd tendecies' our governement does a fairly
effecient job on these kind of projects ;-)

Do you even notice the fact that you automatically seem to judge all
governemental systems based on your own experience/knowledge of the US

>People do not become redundant, they merely are able to make more of
>their time available for occupations which are not so strenuous, not so

IMHO: Less intelligent people are becoming quickly redundant (in an
economic sense). That is what automation is all about, use expensive, smart
machines to replace even more expensive not-so-smart people. You can think
this is a good thing or not, but don't deny that it's happening. IMO we
need to think about the social consequences of this proces.

>Economic collapse: Soviet Union, Poland, E Germany, Romania, Cuba,
>North Korea, Indonesia. All of which had large authoritarian, cradle
>to grave systems.

Indonesia certainly did not have a 'cradle to grave system'! And none of
these were democratic countries. You really should learn to see the
difference between the former communist countries and democratic ones that
have some sort of support system for their citizens. This comparison makes
as much sense as comparing the US to Germany in 1940 - none at all - is
extremely insulting and does not prove anything except your lack of
accurate informtion.

>(without massive per capita oil revinues, as the Dutch are so well endowed
>with, which is mainly the source of your ability to slouch as much as you

Didn't the US have lot's of oil in Texas and Alaska?

The ability to take it easy as much 'as we wish' (but never more ;-) comes
from having on of the worlds highest labour-productivity's and a growing
'knowledge economy' that costs les natural resources per dollar. Not hard
working but smart working, and not _minding_ that most of us can't drive V8
jeeps or buy ultra-light planes. I mean, if you are as wealthy as you claim
and you honestly believe you still need more goodies to be happy you must
be missing out on something (appreciation, love, sex? - not neccesarily in
that order).

>Yes, and LA has one of the highest tax rates and one of the most
>restrictive gun control laws in the entire nation. Some stability.
>It also has one of the highest costs of living.

Again: you compare only _within_ the US of A. This seems a bit limited
(ever been anywhere?). From a mainland-european viewpoint the difference
between LA and other parts of the US is not that staggering. The riots were

If a welfare system does nothing else then its keeping angry impoverished
mobs away from your doorstep. And if you don't believe that you should
read-up on 18th century French history, especially the part about how
Marie-Antoinette lost her head over a cake is very educational ;-)

OK, your turn.


_/ _/
_/ Blessed are those who can laugh at themselves, _/
_/ for they shall never ceased to be amused. _/
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