Re: Defining Human (was fetal tissue)

Arjen Kamphuis (
Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:29:34 +0100 (CET)

Reilly Jones <> wrote:
>The comparisons between the pathology of societies within the culture of
>death and the health and vitality of societies within the culture of life
>are too stark and cannot be allowed.

<rant mode>
So the Netherlands, where the number of abortions-per-capita is an order of
magnitude lower than in the US, is a cultire of death and the part of the
American population blocking acces to clinics and atacking women as they
try to enter, forcing their medieval morality on them is 'the healty and
vital culture of life'?

(taking a few moments to be profoundly sick - there that's better)

I suggest that if sex was not such a taboo in the US, sex-educations was
improved, condoms and the pill were broadly available, most unwanted
pregnancies need never happen. Get practical, get real and stop forcing
_your morality_ on women you haven't even met.
</rant mode>

>As we slip closer and closer to a world governemnt of some sort or another,
>there will be no place on earth left to move to in order to escape the
>culture of death.

As I said before: You can always move to the Vatican, a country filled with
enlightened spririts upholding what you call 'the healty and vital culture
of life'

> The impetus towards world government is from oligarchs
>concerned most of all with world demographics, the UN Cairo Depopulation
>Conference made that abundantly clear. They must impose abortion, etc. on
>everyone, there must be no alternative to the global unity they envision.

You make it sound like women are going to be dragged into clinics by their
hairs, kicking and screaming. The Cairo Conference was primarily about
increasing the availability of sex-education and preservatives around the
world. I can only hope you're not against this, since these are the 2 thing
that have the most potential of making abortions unnessecary.

>As I have previously written, there is no compromise or accommodation
>possible between extropic worldviews and entropic worldviews.

Watch out who you're calling entropic here.

><Now you are forcing your definition of what a human being is on us.>
>The reality is just the opposite, you and your fellow travelers have forced
>it on us. We can't find a jurisdiction to escape it. In response to this
>absolutism, we must organize and fight. This is memetic selection in

I don't see that, no woman is forced to have an abortion. It's _her_ choice
and no one elses (that's why it's called pro-choice I think, but I could be

><A 2 week old fetus is not a person in my book, it has the potential of
>becoming a person.>
>And your book has been forced on us. A 2 week old fetus is a developing
>person, just as an 80 year old is a developing person.

You postulate this again and again without further substanciation, I _you_
feel a 2 week old fetus is a human, great, don't have an abortion should
you get pregnant. Leave other people alone to make up their own mind. Even
if they're not rocketscientitst or philosopy majors they can figure it out
for themselves.

><I don't claim to know what the definition of a human is but I'm pretty
>sure you and I are human.>
>I do know.

Then why haven't you won a couple of Nobel prizes or something?
Do you even grasp the enormous arrogance of those three words?

><I fully realize this is a mess from a philosophical standpoint, but then,
>so is real life.>
>My real life isn't a mess, I certainly can't speak for yours.

My personal life is fine, aside from the fact that my mother might be dying
of a brain disease and might be saved by an implant of compatible fetal
nerve tissue.
(something that wil not happen because resaurch has been all but shutdown
in this field).

>Nor is this
>a mess from my philosophical standpoint, but I see clearly that
>it is from your philosophical standpoint.

of course, I keep foregetting that you have all the answers. Silly me.

><It seems to be broadly accepted (in Europe anyway) and makes for a
>_workable_ rule.>
>Europe is always at least a generation farther down the slope than America.
>And workable for who, the slaughtered innocents, the victims of Europe's
>genteel holocaust?

(to all other US listmembers - forgive my arrogance)
IMHO European laws on abortion are a lot better than the US situation, just
like our drugs legislation.

>Arjen Kamphuis wrote 3/3/98: <I don't think comparing womans clinics to
>nazi-death camps is appropriate.>
>The very large 'right to life' worldwide movement routinely refers to the
>on-going tragedy of mothers murdering their unborn children as the

Then they routinely do not know whet they are talking about or use rethoric
that's fairly obscene. Maybe this is why they don't get much support (?)

>Not in America. In America, abortion is legal on demand right through nine
>months, in fact, right up to having the baby 2/3 out of the birth canal on
>its due date. No legislative process was involved in this, no consensus,
>no will of the people, just top-down imposed death worship by five
>unelected judges, stripping all sovereign rights that individual states
>constitutionally have in this matter.

This is something new (and _profoundly_ different from Europe).
Maybe this is (at least part of) the source of our disagreement. In most
European countries abortion has been legislated very precisely since it
became legal. I don't know the number of weeks exactly (I think it's 10
orso) but there is a strict line long, long before the fetus has developed
far enough to survive outside the womb.

Don't hold me, the British or any other European responsable for the way US
law is made. It's your problem (and your above statement is true a pretty
big one too).

>RJ: <What's wrong with cannabilism?>
>AK: <Nothing (did you see 'Alive'). The problem is the killing part, not
>the >eating part.>
>On behalf of civilization, let me say "Ick!"

Wich is very nice if you're in your comfortable chair in a well-lit and
heated house but not a real solution to _real-world problems_. Pardon me
for recognizing this a a trend in your answers. It's all great
ivorytower-thinking but does not adress the mud of real-life problems.

A 16-year old girl who claimes to have been raped by her retarded brother
but refuses to press official charges and is 4 months pregnant is not a
nicely, clear-cut situation. It's messy and the are no 'clean' solutions.
Notheless these situations exists and have to be adressed.

If you can come up with a practical, implemetable, solution that is better
than "let the woman make her own choice after providing her with
information about all the options and their consequences" Then I'd love to
hear it.

Greetings & good luck,

Arjen Kamphuis | "Here Be Dragons", read the ancient maps | in all the white spots that seemed large
enough to hold the fabled creatures.

let's go dragon hunting.

Transcedo, the Dutch Transhumanist site: