Re: PHIL: Extropy, Boundaries and Suicide

Michael Lorrey (
Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:58:25 -0500

den Otter wrote:

> ----------
> Michael Lorrey <> wrote:
> > Sorry, the last thing I would want any do gooder to do is save me from myself.
> Of course. But what if you really aren't yourself at that time, i.e. in some kind of
> fit that has blocked out your "normal" consciousness? Maybe the libertarian
> solution would be to make a deal with others while fully conscious that allows
> them to act on behalf of your primary persona during a fit or longer period
> of insanity. There are however some problems with this, like what are people
> to do during your first fit (no instructions), or what about strangers who see
> you running around a busy highway naked and screaming etc. Sometimes
> coercion can be really for one's own good (but I agree, it should be kept to
> an absolute minimum).

That is still for me to decide, even if its in a lucid moment and if I actually am nuts.
Deviating from this in any manner opens the door for big brother to decide when you are
insane or not, depending on your present political correctness, or for others to decide
you are nuts in order to get ahold of your assets (the recent 'Roby Ridge' incident is
one example of this). Some things cannot be surrendered, or we are all indanger of being
enslaved by the do gooders. Whether it is for my own good, (in your opinion), is
irrelevant. You are not the one with authority to decide.

> > A drunk
> > or addict cannot get sober solely through the actions of others, but only through
> the
> > personal will to do so,
> Maybe this is more or less true at the moment(?), but I suppose that future medics
> will
> be able to correct any mental problem, whithout requiring your co-operation.

SOrry, I don't know about your country, but here, doctors have to get your permission,
or if your unconcious, the permission of next of kin to operate. I don't see this
changing that much. Moreover there is more to substance dependency than just
physiological. Unless you approve of others having free reign to just rewrite other's
personalities, the only way for a person to kick a psychological dependency is through
personal will. This is recognised in most all drug treatment programs. The 30-45 days
you are in a treatment center is mostly for giving you time to kick the physiological
dependency, but it takes years of personal work to change your psychological dependency.
During this time, one is not insane.

> > nor should a person who has decided to end their lives be
> > forcibly saved and then brainwashed by the shrink establishment into thanking
> people for
> > doing so.
> Well, if you assume that there are in fact multiple personalities, of which one (or
> more)
> want(s) to live while the other(s) want(s) to die, then at least a part of that
> person will
> be truly grateful for saving him from the alter ego(s) that hijacked his mind. The
> only
> problem could be: which one of the multiple personalities is the "real" one? Or:
> who's
> rights should be respected? Maybe forcibly curing the person isn't such a bad idea
> after all, because this is in fact the only way to please *both* personalities: the
> suicidal one gets removed (his deathwish is granted) while the other, non-suicidal
> one stays alive.
> > Just as the freedom of speech means that one has the freedom to NOT speak, the
> > right to life guarrantees that the individual has the right to decide when NOT to
> live,
> > otherwise, it is no right at all.
> I agree, but with the mentally ill things are somewhat more complicated (see above).

SInce 'mentally ill' is only defined by psychologists as a state where one's perception
of reality differs from the mainstream, I think that this is not a criteria worth
considering. By this definition, everyone on this list is quite insane. Do you want
others making your health decisions for you?

   Michael Lorrey
------------------------------------------------------------ Inventor of the Lorrey Drive
MikeySoft: Graphic Design/Animation/Publishing/Engineering
How many fnords did you see before breakfast today?