Re: BASICS: Socialism vs Capitalism (was Re: Immortality and

J. de Lyser (
Sat, 08 Feb 1997 02:12:08 +0100

At 17:39 7-02-97 +0000, Mark Grant wrote:

>The problem, of course, is that socialism is antithetical to transhuman
>ideas. We're all for change and socialism is the most sophisticated
>attempt yet to prevent change and create a static society.

During communist rule, Russia changed from a local political power
devastated by war, to a technological superpower. How did they do that ?
No... let me guess, they cheated right ? Something DID work for them.
Saying that such a system can only work with no individual freedom
whatsoever, i will agree to, saying its a static system by definition i

>How many of the
>transhuman ideas we've talked about originated in socialist countries?

Right, many of them came from constitutional monarchies with social
democrat influences. You seriously think that technology and science are by
definition products of capitalism ? 6.000 years of human history seem to
disagree with you on that. I agree that capitalism has the best influence
on the development of such, but i can't agree with saying all other systems
are static...

>many will be allowed in such countries? After all, no-one has a right to
>immortality until all the homeless have color TVs...

I'm not defending socialism, i'm not attacking capitalism, i am however
advocating a system with a reasonable chance for success. If such a system
is to be anarcho- capitalist, (which is the most interesting option), it
had better include some safeguards, less the homeless will come and take
away my color TV, other than violently suppressing them. (ofcourse i will
be only too glad to give them the cardboard box it came in ;-) ) Such
safeguards would have to include easy social mobility, along the lines of
somewhat equal starting positions.

>> Whereas these
>> individual characteristics mean little in a politically/socially stable
>> society (!), they tend to flourish in one that is subject to rapid
>> change... ;-)
>Exactly. And socialism is all about stability.

Should i get into extreme capitalist demographics ? Imagine a situation
where only the richest 5 % could afford the highest quality education,
imagine a drop in intelligence among that class due to normal genetic
processes, a drop not being filled up for 100% by new people, as all of the
talented nouveau riches had lower educational standards and will never
reach the full 100% of that intelligence level. Same goes for teachers etc.
Now calculate how long it would take for a society like that to become

It's basically how nobility dissapeared, but ofcourse they had

>I think most people around here would choose libertarianism or
>anarcho-capitalism as their ideal political system. Both, of course, allow
>people to set up their own voluntary socialist organisations within the
>capitalist structure, but not to force their opinions on the capitalists.
>One thing that people seem to miss is that capitalism (or at least
>libertarian or anarcho-capitalism) is a superset of other kinds of
>political organisations, which is why it's preferable to any of them. You
>can't have a capitalist community in a communist society, but you can
>easily have a voluntary communist community in an capitalist society.

I agree with these ideals, but i'm not so sure some communists who lived in
the US would agree with the practical side of your theory though. I believe
many were taken from their homes and convicted for whatever ideological
crime they had committed, at least twice in US history. Sounds almost as
static to me as some communist policies towards capitalists in their

However, i do wish to express my gratitude to the people of the US
(honestly), for ridding the world of communism. I'm just not going to be
naive about overvalueing the ideological reasons why, if you all are, i'm
really sorry for you. Don't forget the US state is now using the same means
for their socialist indoctrination, they would have used 15-30 years ago
against it... (hint, hint)

P.S. thanks also for saving the world economy by ensuring that kuwayti oil
keep flowing in the right direction...

Isn't it about time Europe & Japan start doing something in return for all
these favors ?