Re: MEMES: superstitions

Michael Lorrey (
Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:38:40 -0500

Joel 'Twisty' Nye wrote:
> Re: MEMES: superstitions
> Lee Daniel Crocker ( replied:
> >Superstition, myth, aphorisms, dogma, and the like /are/ successful.
> >Even as an unwavering advocate of reason, I can see their value in a
> >few contexts:
> >* Teaching children how to behave in terms they can understand
> > and use while they're in the process of learning why;
> >* To supply shortcuts, rules of thumb, that can be used to make timely
> > decisions about newly-encountered situations when there isn't time
> > for rigorous analysis;
> >* To provide examples (in the form of myths) to explain principles.
> The focus on effect is good, but a 'deceptive' causal explanation
> could be counter-productive down the road. It's a gamble that
> sometimes 'pays' and sometimes doesn't. Such memes have high value of
> effectiveness, but not as high a value of rendering understanding.
> >So why not create extropian myths, aphorisms, holidays, idioms? In
> >fact, the resistance to do so might give us the false impression that
> >those we create inadvertantly have more meaning than they do.
> On one hand, there is much gained by solidifying vision through symbols
> and abstractions of cause and effect. On the other hand, the
> 'competing gods' syndrome is what creates the greatest faults in
> the Christ legend. (Jesus/Y'shua himself said 'Why do you call me
> good? None is good but the Father.' Yet, people EQUATED him to the
> Father, against his intentions.)
> Perhaps we're already on the right path there... We villify Entropy,
> even though it can have some place outside of Extropy. We deify
> Spontaneous Order, even though it might allow for harmful complexity
> or stiffling stability. Singularity sounds remarkably adventist.
> >I must say, though, that I find not a single thing worthwhile about
> >Jesus's teachings at all. He is the classic self-sacrificial altruist,
> Altruism is a mixed bag. It is the ultimate discipline to have the
> self control over one's choices to execute perfect actions while
> overriding mortal fear. The judgemental Church still doesn't
> understand just how great it is that he didn't 'take personal' his
> own murderous execution. On the other hand, it seems to me that few
> extropians would have respect of a decission to let principle permit
> such a death, if that was ever his intent.
> (Read on about his so-called 'death.')
> >mindlessly vengeful (e.g., the fig tree),
> ...a 'competing gods' legend borrowed from Hinduism...
> >praising "faith" (mysticism and uncritical acceptance of dogma),
> There's another Church-perverted term... The word "Faith" never meant
> "blind belief" but rather "Commitment." (Faithful to marriage, faithful
> to contracts...) It was recognized that such faith prerequired a certain
> amount of trust, but when trust was questioned, the Church later
> oversimplified it down to belief.
> The extropian counterpart would be 'Self-Confidence,' which is just
> as easy to criticize, yet no less valued. It too can move mountains.
> >"hope" (begging for supernatural favors instead of working
> >to better yourself),
> Hope is much better than Hopelessness as long as it's not misplaced.
> Ironically, the only two things that Jesus would pray about were
> natural providence (daily bread), and self-fulfilling matters (forgiveness,
> praise, and workers for the field...)
> >and "charity" (self-sacrifice and self-loathing).
> True, one of his most misplaced (or misinterperated?) instructions was to
> take up one's cross. Could it be that people misunderstood the irony with
> which he spoke that?: In seeking one's life they lose it, but in giving
> one's life they find it?
> >He was anti-capitalist ("camel through the needle's eye..."),
> >pro-government ("render unto Caesar...").
> If he says to pay your dues to Caesar and teaches the value of coins,
> he can hardly be called "anti-capitalist." Non-capitalist perhaps,
> he indicates that there are many greater values in a human economy.
> He said 'it is *greater* to give than to recieve,' but not 'worthless
> to receive.'
> As for the Caesar bit, I thought this exhibits genius:
> It's a funny punchline to a bitter issue of taxation.
> It is the most simple and eliquent solution as to the issues of
> justice that divided a people.
> "Give Caesar what is Caesar's, Give God what is God's."
> It is one of history's first documented lessons in Appropriate Scale vs.
> Totalitarianism... a lesson we are only now gaining in firm grasp as
> we move from a bigger-is-better industrial era to the information age.
> >To hell with him, I'll pick my own heroes. "And yea, Feynmann
> >said unto his students..."
> Yes we will all value different role models... It will be difficult
> to find one that would be undebatable until someone *really* comes
> along who can put an end to death.
> The Church has covered up much evidence that Jesus NEVER REALLY DIED on
> the cross. This is spoken of in the Quran, that 'he was never killed,
> but the Jews merely *thought* that they had killed him.' The Shroud
> of Turin, if found authentic, corroberates this as well. The most damning
> evidence is in the Bible itself: That the spear caused blood and water to
> come pouring out his side. This would not be the case of a man whose heart
> had supposedly stopped moments before. (For those who have an interest
> in this, check out the book "The Jesus Conspiracy.") He may have even gone
> into his fate with the assurance of resuscitation.

While the Shroud of Turin has been determined to be not of Y'shua's era,
there is significant info that contradicts the catholic/orthodox
"Bible", or presents info in it in the proper context. For example: at
the time, to be called rabbi meant that you WERE a Rabbi, and Rabbis of
the time HAD to be married, so who was Y'shua's wife? Its obvious that
since he was the master of the cermony at Cannae whome the servats
deferred to when wine came up short, and again referring to actual
Hebrew culture, he was the guy getting married at Cannae. Also, since
Mary Magdalene was brought to him over her adultery, as well as her
familial heritage being from the house of King Saul (and Y'shua's
heritage being from the two houses of David), as well as some other
stuff, including his close relations with Mary's sister and brother
Lazarus, that Mary Magdalene was his wife. This brings us to the point
of what was really going on. SOme people have concluded from this sort
of analysis that Y'shua was simply part of a Hebrew Royal scheme to
depose the Herod's and oust the Romans. Seeing how much support he got
from the populace at Passover indicates the level to which people saw
the Hebrew Royals as not only having secular authority, but spiritual
authority, which would explain why he was able to attain such a
following as well as arouse the hatred of both political and spiritual
leaders in power.

Now, seeing as how his wife was of the House of Saul, it would follow
that it wasn't Y'shua that was seen as the savior, but his Son who would
unite all the Houses of Isreal.

Here's additional tricky theory: Golgotha was not the site of the
crucifixtion, as he was strung up in the garden of John of Aramathea (a
relative and local politician), in whose tomb Y'shua was "buried" to
recover from his possible drug induced state in peace, to be
"resurrected" three days later.

Biblical contradiction: If Christ was convicted of religious violations,
why was he not stoned, as was the prescribed punishment, rather than
crucified, which was specifically reserved for leaders of rebellions
against the City and People of Rome (which would be expected if he were
a political aspirant)? The whole last scenes always seemed too damn
contrived to me, very uncharacteristic of the characters involved.

I recommend the book "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" to anyone interested in
this line of reasoning. I can't remember the authors, but it looks at
all these contradictions, plus info from the Gospels of Thomas and Mary,
as well as info about the Merovingian Kings of Gaul (descended from the
Fisher King of Marseilles of the 2nd century) who have been linked to
the whole Arthurian/Masonic Mythos....
> This is a unique century that will uncover a great number of historic
> discrepancies regarding the Bible. Just over fifty years ago were the
> Dead Sea Scrolls uncovered, and they don't corroberate everthing they
> were expected to. Post-King-James revisions omit entire chapters that
> are not true to earlier manuscripts. 'Apocryphal' books and gospels
> show a side to Jesus never seen before. (I for one love 'The Gospel of
> Thomas,' most likely omitted for its equality of sexes.)

As well as the Gospel of Mary!!!

> I will not worship a Christ legend, but I do find many praiseworthy
> characteristics to the historic Y'shua. A humorist and healer,
> he was 'deified' without his wishes. His fellow jews prefered the
> judgemental vigilance of his cousin John the Baptist. But Jesus
> was a party-loving contrast to John:
> "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread
> nor drinking wine, and you say, `He has a demon.'
> The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you
> say, `Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a
> friend of tax collectors and "sinners."'
> But wisdom is proved right by all her children." Luke 7:33-35
> I don't have totalitarian views of forcing the world to worship him.
> (Neither did Jesus... When he said to go baptizing into all the world,
> he was talking about purifying people through bathing, not building
> Synagogs of indoctrination!) But if Wisdom is proved right by all
> her children, then I will likely share in the admiration of your heroes,
> whether or not you value mine.
> I for one gotta admire a guy who teaches his fellow Jews to be more
> accepting and tollerant of each other, working to bring humor and healing
> to everyone around him. (Whew! That was some load off my chest!)

And to create a meme that would survive the longest history of mutation
and parasitism yet retaining its essential, central truth far longer
than any other.


Michael Lorrey ------------------------------------------------------------ President Northstar Technologies Agent Inventor of the Lorrey Drive

Website: Now Featuring: Mikey's Animatronic Factory My Own Nuclear Espionage Agency (MONEA) MIKEYMAS(tm): The New Internet Holiday Transhumans of New Hampshire (>HNH) ------------------------------------------------------------ Transhumanist, Inventor, Webmaster, Ski Guide, Entrepreneur, Artist, Outdoorsman, Libertarian, Arms Exporter-see below. ------------------------------------------------------------ #!/usr/local/bin/perl-0777---export-a-crypto-system-sig-RC4-3-lines-PERL @k=unpack('C*',pack('H*',shift));for(@t=@s=0..255){$y=($k[$_%@k]+$s[$x=$_ ]+$y)%256;&S}$x=$y=0;for(unpack('C*',<>)){$x++;$y=($s[$x%=256]+$y)%256; &S;print pack(C,$_^=$s[($s[$x]+$s[$y])%256])}sub S{@s[$x,$y]=@s[$y,$x]}