Re: Bye-Bye to the >H Right Wing ->Property

From: Vanessa Novaeris (
Date: Thu Feb 14 2002 - 22:19:39 MST

>From: Mike Lorrey <>
>Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:49:46 -0500
>First, I want to say your post is excellent, thanks for sharing, I'm
>glad you are still alive

Thanks! me too :P

>If the individual is free of dependents and debts, then I entirely agree
>with you. I disagree, though, when it comes to dependents and debts, the
>state (or your PPL provider, in a libertarian setting) does have an
>interest in looking out for the interests of others who are dependent
>upon you being a productive member of society.
>Lets look at a hypothetical situation, lets say I am driving while high
>and hit another car, causing damage to not only my car, but the other
>person's car and injuring them and my ex-wife and two kids who are in
>the back seat of my car, but my ex-wife has just gained full custody of
>them and I've lost all parental privileges and responsibilities. I'm
>unemployed and uninsured, and I say, "I'm high and can't pay for the
>damages anyways cause I've got no job." I do happen to own a $200,000
>house outright. If the state says "huh, well, we're gonna seize your
>house and sell it to pay for the damage you did."
>Can I, the addict, STILL blame the state for taking my house? Is what
>the state did WRONG?
>Furthermore, by seizing that last crutch in my life that was enabling my
>addiction, namely having a decent place to live so I could kid myself
>that I wasn't really at 'rock bottom' yet, so I "wasn't ready" to get
>sober, didn't the state (or the insurance company, or the courts, or
>whatever) help me along to decide to get sober, while protecting the
>EQUAL interests of others involved?
>and don't say this is 'nonsense and inappropriate'. I've seen situations
>like this or exactly like this in the lives of many addicts.

First I want to apologize if I sounded too dismissive (while not my
intention, I now see that I kinda was) but I think it was more a reaction to
the comment itself perhaps than your point behind it. Also understand, I am
in early recovery, immersed in "the program" & I'm just SO sick of listening
to people whining & feeling sorry for themselves without actually DOING
anything about anything that I'm at a point now where I really have no
compassion or sympathy. These are my own highly volatile personal feelings
which I know should not interfere with a rational analysis of the matter at
hand. So again, I'm really sorry. If you do have experience with addicts in
early recovery, you should know that emotionally we're more fucked up than
we were when we were using :P They say when you get sober you are the mental
age (maturity I assume) of the age you *started using at. (can any
neurological creedence be given to this claim?)
Anyhow, you pose a difficult question. But like you said, this is the real
world, not an ideal state. My problem specifically is the whole government
seizure of property thing. I think my general concerns are reflected by
another post

by Lee Daniel Crocker 12/2/02:
<<And further, while forfeiture cases may seem justified on
criminaldrug-abuse grounds, the reality of the law and its present
applicationis that they are simply government theft of private property
without dueprocess. No conviction--or even formal accusation--of any crime
isnecessary for a forfeiture. Due process and the rights of the accuseddon't
apply, because no person is being accused: the property itself isbeing
accused (the court cases have wonderful titles like "U.S. vs. 100Bottles of
Wine") Anyone who supports such forfeiture laws is nolibertarian, regardless
of the pretext used to justify them.>>

I can't comment on the last part because I don't know anything about
libertarian, but living in a State with the power to seize property is just
plain scary. & the truth is that this power is abused more often than we
know. The best example of this is chronicled in a documentary by Robbie
Leppzer called "An Act of Conscience" - its on the Sundance Channel
sometimes if you get a chance to peep it. This couple refused to pay taxes
during the eighties (because of the Iran-Contra stuff I think - I was too
young to remember) but figured their taxes out every year w/ their
accountant & donated the money to local charities. Their house was seized &
they protested outside in tents for almost two years (since, through a
technicality, they still owned the land the house was on). Its really an
amazing story, from whatever your viewpoint. I think its also available
through turningtide film. I only know about it because it all happened a
town away from here (middle-of-nowhere-northwestern Massachusetts - and yes
our street lights really are always green!)
here's a link:


Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Fri Nov 01 2002 - 13:37:39 MST