Re: GUNS: Re: Self Defense

From: Michael Lorrey (
Date: Mon Jan 22 2001 - 08:42:50 MST

denis bider wrote:
> Michael S. Lorrey wrote (quoting myself):
> > > I have to say I don't really understand this paranoia of yours.
> > Its not paranoia when it actually happens to many people,
> I apologize if I was teasing too far. I don't know what actually happens in
> your country, other than that I constantly watch your films, news and
> talk-shows and read your newspapers. Yes well, basically, these are the same
> sources of information that you have - but still, I believe you scrutinize
> facts like these much more carefully than I do.

Most of our mainstream press is hopelessly oriented toward promoting the
propaganda of the fasco-leftist agenda.

> [Note to Michael: please make sure to read the second half of the message. I
> am looking forward to your rebuttal regarding what I found your statistics
> to be. Hint: 'made up' would be a very kind expression for what you tried to
> pull off.]
> > Yes, I understand this was also the case in 1938 in some
> > countries. Lets see, you are in Slovenia, according to,
> > which is a former Yugoslav republic. Hmmmm, no, I'm sure every
> > person killed in your country definitely needed to be killed.
> ;-)
> Yes, in 1945, the socialist government killed mercilessly thousands of
> people who weren't friends with the new forces that be. Later on, they were
> quick to brand you as an "enemy of the state" if you showed the least sign
> of a liberal outlook on life, and they put you away to "Naked Island", a
> small island in the Adriatic. Just a couple of hundred meters from shore,
> but incredibly difficult to escape from because of the strong currents. Many
> people spent decades on that island, and many more died there, too.
> > No european nation has any right to claim they are
> > in any way more peaceful or safer. The odds of a european
> > dying from gun fire is about a hundred times higher than
> > for any American.
> I'd like to hear where you got these numbers from, and what part of Europe
> they refer to.
> I had some difficulty verifying your claims. I visited the website of our
> Ministry for Internal Affairs, and they say we had something less than 200
> criminal acts involving arms in 1998. That translates to 0.0001 such act per
> citizen per year. The number of such criminal acts involving firearms (not
> arms in general) should be significantly lower.

In terms of lifetime risk of death, with the average life expectancy of
75+ years, this means that in the last lifetime, there have been at
least 100 million innocent people killed by violent means (WWII, Stalins
purges before, during, and after the war, the Greek civil war, the
ongoing Yugoslavian conflicts, etc). At least half of these are due to
gunfire directly, if not as many as 3/4 (even the majority of Jews
executed were shot rather than gassed). In the US in the same time,
there has been an average of 8000-10,000 innocent people killed by
firearms by other people each year. This is 600,000-750,000 innocent
people killed in the same time period. Multiply by 100, and that comes
to 60-75 million people, which matches the gunfire deaths in europe in
the same time period.

Now, you'll say "But that was a war". So what? Those wars were caused by
countries that were fascist/socialist dictatorships that had been
brought to power by the common people who allowed themselves to be
conned into believing that they should give up their rights to self
defense, then those governments invaded other countries inhabited by
people who had been conned into beleiving socialist party arguments that
they should give up their right to self defense. There has never been a
case of a republic of freely armed individuals being defeated by an
equally sized dictatorship. Such nations are only defeated from within,
by destroying the common trust of the individual's ability to handle
their liberty responsibly. Dictatorships and socialist nations (i.e. all
of europe, except for Switzerland) cannot seem to go more than two or
three generations without either revolution or war or widespread
government murder of dissidents.

It is not a mistake that the socialist partisans here in the US are the
biggest supporters of gun control. They know so long as private gun
ownership exists, they can never fully implement their plans.

This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Mon May 28 2001 - 09:56:22 MDT