Re: MS Funded/Founded by NSA?

From: Matthew Gaylor (
Date: Sat Feb 19 2000 - 20:50:56 MST

[See Note at end]

From: John Young <>
Subject: Re: MS Funded/Founded by NSA?

Very well, your rebuttal would be an informative addition
to the file, if you don't object.

To pick up on a couple of your points:

There should be a sustained burst of activity from Europe
on the Echelon affair as EuroParl deliberates on it, guided by
the four 1999 Echelon reports prepared by its technological
research department, STOA. The one most recently featured
for its allegations about Wintel is, "Development of Surveillance
Technology and Risk of Abuse of Economic Information (an
appraisal of technologies of political control):"

The Cukier CFP99 report Matthew cited presents a useful summary
of Echelon-like activities by nations other than the US.

Wayne Madsen is quoted today in Canada's National Post that
the EU hearings are a joke. That all nations spy on each other
and only a fool thinks otherwise:

And Wayne Madsen wrote yesterday of Net intrusions and attacks
by the USG, with the probability that it carried out the US "hacker

Which of these charges and countercharges and dismissals
are conventional bread and butter propaganda and which are
new revelations, that may never be known for certain.

Would that San Diegian be the gent who bragged of snagging


Tim May wrote:

>It's probably a boullaibaise (sp?) of paranoid conspiracy theory,
>journalistic sensationalism, piling on, French nationalism, and a desire to
>distract attention away from French industrial espionage. (Recall the
>confirmed report that Air France was bugging commercial travellers.)
>PC-DOS was so primitive in 1980, when IBM's Boca Raton division--itself a
>backwater, led by Phil "Don" Estridge--that it is inconceivable that it had
>any "spying" hooks built in. I mean, come on! Besides which, it was written
>initially by Tim Patterson, of Seattle Computer, and only bought hastily by
>MS when it looked like they would get the IBM contract. (So the French
>paranoids would claim that Tim Patterson was operating his little company
>in Seattle with the intent of selling his spy software to MS. Get real.)
>PC-DOS, later MS-DOS, was also small enough in those days that nearly every
>function could be analyzed in detail, and the code could be dissected.
>Ditto for the chips. I worked for Intel during that period when this
>supposed NSA "Operation Wintel" was being developed, and I can assure you
>that the chips of the day had no particular features of interest to the
>NSA, save for some of the well-known bit twiddling instructions wmight
>otherwise have been. (But a lot less well-suited than it _could_ have been.)
>Most compellingly, until fairly recently the Net was primarily run off of
>Sun and similar computers...we all know that, of course. Sniffers on Sun
>networks would have been more interesting (and there's anecdotal evidence
>that a certain San Diegan developed precisely those tools for the NSA).
>Arghh..where to continue? Consider that at least several other
>manufacturers of Intel-compatible chips exist. AMD, obviously. But also
>Cyrix/National/Via, and Texas Instruments, and IBM. Did all of them design
>in the "special NSA sections"? Without any of them talking?
>(And these are only the recent deals. In the past, Matra/Harris, a
>French-affiliated company, was a producer. Ditto for a bunch of others,

>American, European, and Asian. All of them in on the conspiracy?)
>As a paranoid theory, it's not even interesting.
>--Tim May
>Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>"Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.

[Note from Matthew Gaylor: Tim May asked that I include his comments
if I fowarded his rebuttal: "...but tell them I won't respond to any
e-mail. (I hate it when my words show up on some list and I get a
bunch of questions from East Bumfuck, Nebraska asking what I "meant."
People on other lists don't have context for my comments.) And tell
them if they crosspost to me, I'll reply with 500 messages for each
of theirs." --Tim May]

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