From: JAY DUGGER (duggerj1@charter.net)
Date: Sun Aug 03 2003 - 16:09:19 MDT
On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 23:15:49 -0400
  p_chikara@hotmail.com wrote:
>I used the word "extropians" in a serious discussion 
>recently and once again
>was reminded that extropians sound like goofy cultists.
Sigh. That's familiar.
[snip]
>What would be the best answer to someone who would say 
>that the primo body
>and mind uploading  are allegoric figures that 
>transhumanists and extropians
>are offering that permits to fantasm a body removed from 
>it's attaches with
>the present, the here and now, impossible bodies, wich 
>makes them promoter
>of an ascetic ideal, who hates the body and the flesh 
>(and are possibly even
>worse than christians at it,  with their angels without 
> nose or phallus)
>and consequently alienation (alienation is to be 
>understood here as "being
>estranged to oneself").
>
Alienation doesn't necessarily follow from asceticism, 
which in turn doesn't necessarily equal 
self-mortification.
Ideas about uploading a human mind or radically modified 
human bodies express a hoped-for ideal, not a rejection of 
the actual. Perhaps few extropes or transhumanists strive 
for an idealized human body through diet or exercise, but 
that makes such people (like me) lazy and wishful at 
worst.
As for "primo body" or uploading serving as 
allegories--well, of course they do. Any actual radical 
transformation lies pretty far in the future, and might 
have significant drawbacks not currently imagined or even 
imaginable.
People do take small steps toward rebuilt bodies and 
uploading. It's a slippery slope from cosmetics and wigs, 
past eyeglasses and contact lenses to prosthetics and 
beyond--but it's a continuous curve. A similar progression 
exists from wristwatches, possibly the first physically 
intimate mental assistant since pocket-sized notebooks, to 
portable cameras and audio recorders, to cell phones, 
PDAs, and wearable computers. 
If you need an example of a purely asethetic bodily 
improvement, and plastic surgery won't serve, here's one.
I'd like to have a better sense of hearing to improve my 
ability to appreciate music. I'd like to have absolute 
pitch. I'd like to have the ability to discriminate 
absolute loudness, instead of about seven relative levels. 
I can't imagine what current music would sound like if I 
could hear volume as finely as pitch, much less imagine 
music composed by people with that ability.
Hope this helps--you might also look at Kurzweil's "Human 
Body 2.0". Please let the list know if your discussions 
profit.
Jay Dugger     :     Til Eulenspiegel
http://www.vibepusher.com/~jdugger
Sometimes the delete key serves best.
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