Re: On Libertarianism and founding a free state (was Re: Food labels etc)

From: Phil Osborn (philosborn2001@yahoo.com)
Date: Wed Jul 30 2003 - 19:16:59 MDT

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    In response to Mike Lorrey (see below or go to
    http://www.extropy.org/exi-lists/extropians/0307/12188.html:)

    And just who decides and how that this individual
    violates the Geneva Conventions by acting as an
    illegal combatant? The U.S. military? Without a
    public trial by jury? How convenient. As I said, if
    rights are defined as due process, then we are all
    perfectly free right now (to follow the law, that is).

    The whole point of Guantanemo is that these people are
    accused of something which carries legal penalties.
    That accusation does not constitute a conviction. No
    matter WHO makes it. That's the whole point of public
    trials, juries, due process and the recognition of
    basic human rights, which exist independent of any law
    or state. AFTER they have been convicted by a proper
    public jury process, with access to counsel, privacy,
    rights to appeal, etc., THEN, if they are duly
    convicted, and ONLY THEN can you with any claim of
    legitimacy make the kind of ludicrous Kafkaesque
    claims you make below.

    BTW, my understanding is that now all the U.S. state
    has to do to nail you or me is to make a similar
    declaration that we have de facto, by our actions,
    given up our U.S. citizenship - and all the "rights"
    (as they now define "rights") it entails - by acting
    as a foreign combatant. Then we could end up down
    there too - and we might.

    On another related note, I am sorry if I have confused
    the discussion of a "free state." Originally I know
    the discussion referred to an existing "state" of the
    U.S. However, somewhere along the thread, the
    perspective broadened and that's where I came in. The
    same issues apply however in the narrower context, and
    any reliance upon "state sovereignty" or "state's
    rights" might be dampened by reference to the Fed's
    actions here in California, where they have had no
    qualms about going after medical mariuana users,
    despite objections from the "state."

    I do agree, however, that moving any "state" in the
    general direction of libertarianism would be a good
    thing, and I am considering what actions I might take
    if this project appears likely to actually succeed. I
    note that Mary Margarette in Fort Collins, CO, tried
    this a decade or more ago, and got quite a few
    libertarians to move there, but apparently without any
    great impact.

    Here's the quotes from Mike:

    Mike Lorrey (mlorrey@yahoo.com)
    Date: Tue Jul 29 2003 - 21:07:44 MDT

    No, you are conflating two separate issues.

    When an individual violates the Geneva Conventions by
    acting as an illegal combatant, ALL of their rights
    are automatically forfeit BECAUSE of their crime of
    acting as an illegal combatant. They can be legally
    executed summarily without trial. These are not
    innocent men in Gitmo's prison. They are killers who
    refuse to wear a uniform, who attack civilians and
    torture innocents. They refuse to operate by the
    Geneva Conventions, and since they choose to operate
    in violation of the laws of war, they will be tried
    outside the civilian court system, for their crime is
    not a civil crime, it is a military one.

    I have several times asked people to read the Geneva
    Conventions, please do not make any more unsupported
    claims about such things until you do so.

    **************

    Me: and you know, without any due process, trial,
    etc., that these people are guilty as charged, because
    you just trust the U.S. military, or whoever is making
    that claim? Great. We can save a whole passel of
    money here. Just put those people in place of our
    juries in general.

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