From: matus (matus@matus1976.com)
Date: Thu Jul 17 2003 - 10:51:29 MDT
> At 05:09 PM 7/16/03 -0700, Mike Lorry wrote:
>
> >This all exactly what ExI AIN'T done, and as far as I can see, WON'T
> >do. It's too bad, cause this inaction by ExI is highly
> unextropic. If
> >the luddites win, it will be entirely ExI's fault.
>
> ExI is not an activist organization. If you ever
> participated in some of
> the work that occurs at ExI central, you might have a better
> understanding
> of who is doing what. I think that perhaps your best work
> and interest
> lies in the political organization you mentioned in your
> post, and I wish
> you much success there.
>
> Frankly, I find your comments angry, backward and unproductive.
>
> Natasha
>
Mike speeks eloquently on many of the problems I feel plague this list
as well. To call Mike's criticism of extropians (that they are
unproductive) unproductive is indeed ironic. I see in this list the
largest conglomeration of intelligent people in a single email list I
have yet come across. While I don't know what many of you do offline
(or on) I share Mr. Lorrey's sentiments, that it seems extropians are
"are about the most non-action-oriented people I've ever met..." We are
a vast computer with mostly unused CPU cycles... its a lot of well
intentioned people hoping a better world comes around, but doing
absolutely nothing to bring that about.
A few weeks back, Harvey noted:
"My biggest concern right now is that, in general, most Extropians lack
the scientific expertise or understanding to support the evaluations and
predictions we make." AND "I was among the first subscribers to this
list at the end of the '80s decade. Now, I have just turned 40, and I
am not sure that we are accomplishing anything."
Harvey eloquently voiced some of my own concerns, though I would have
probably labeled them 'annoyances' 'disappointments' instead of fears as
Harvey politely labeled them, concerns which he later felt were put to
rest. His concerns and Mike Lorry's observations are partly the reason
for my less frequent posting as of late. It does not seem to me that
much productive or practical developments come from the discussions on
this list (given the info I am privy to).
This, however, begs the question what is the point of our discussions.
There is no doubt value in friendly chat with people of similar
interests, and I don't think every conversation should be held to a
criteria of 'prove this is beneficial to extropian ideals or cease
posting' But conversely, there should be goals identified and worked
toward as a combined group effort. I am sure there are a lot of
individuals doing their own part, but surely the collective intelligence
of this list has its own unique emergent properties.
There has been more chatter on this list about thread titles and
discussion names then there has been on a real effort to pursue
technological progression. I would add to this comment the complaint
that a lot of the discussions that take place are not important, while
important discussion often are reacted to negatively.
Why might I think Extropians are 'non-action oriented'? I hope to be
proven wrong, but in the time I have been on this list I have made
numerous suggestions, including:
Recently I read Eliezer "excruciatingly gentle introduction" to a
complex yet extremely important topic. I responded suggesting that
since the extropy list is (probably) full of individuals who are experts
on something or another, and given that it is important to spread
scientific and extropian memes, perhaps Extropians should go about
writing excruciatingly gentle introductions to complex yet important
topics. I was going to further add that perhaps a monthly or bi-monthly
newsletter relaying these 'excruciatingly gentle introductions' would be
a phenomenal help at spreading extropian memes. I did not add that
because, as I suspected would happen, did happen.
0 replies.
Ok, thats fine, but lets talk more about brains the size of jupiter and
what we would ask god if we came across him, because these things are
important.
Previous to that, a few weeks back, I participated in a thread with
Adrian Tymes, discussing the value of a small implant which would burn
calories. Such an implant would a phenomenal and direct representation
of the good that technology can achieve, and would save millions of
people-years. With the 'Obesity' problem touted as the next global
epidemic in the west, with one foul swoop that problem could be
eradicated with such an implant. How many replies did Adrian and I
receive when we pointed out the collective knowledge on the extropy list
could likely achieve such a device?
0 replies. Ok, Again, maybe not a good idea...
Previous to that, a thread developed talking about cloning the most
intelligent people in the world and raising the children in science
friendly environments, receiving many replies and much discussion. I
suggested instead that Extropians just adopt any of the thousands of
information craved children out there with no good homes and start
raising some extropian kids.
0 replies. Not even a 'wow, good idea' (perhaps it just wasn't as
well)
Previous to that, I suggested that Extropians make an effort to put
together an empirical account of historical events, given the immense
amount of knowledge *and* contradictory opinions on here, there is no
reason why a concentrated effort by intelligent individuals wouldn't
result in near perfect objective account of important historical events.
Considering no such repository exists, it seemed pretty valuable. But,
again...
0 replies.
I have requested time and time again that someone take the time to do an
in depth unbiased historical examination of, say, the cold war, with me
but have only ever been met with silence. I have presented examples of
what I mean when I say a good in depth examination of a historical
question. Thankfully there seems a current movement amongst Skeptics to
partake in just such an effort, spearheaded by Michael Shermers 'Denying
History' which proved beyond a reasonable doubt using scientific
methodology that the Holocaust did indeed happen. Instead people insist
on holding their existing opinions, and have no interest in challenging
them or justifying them.
There are no doubt a lot of people on this list who know a lot of
things, and suggesting they are wrong in the face of overwhelming
evidence is absurd. I would never, for example, suggest Amara's
descriptions on the formation of dust clouds is incorrect, however her
historical account and perception of US involvement in the Afghan
Invasion certainly was, and I presented a clear, calm, precise argument
suggesting as much.
Additionally, just recently, I lamented that the banning of DDT causes
some 2 - 4million deaths annualy and that since its ban it has caused
nearly 60 million deaths, putting one Rachel Carson as the top mass
murderer of all time if you consider people to be morally culpable for
their opinions being believed. Can we do something about the DDT ban?
I don't know, but we can try? (perhaps the ban is a good idea, and I am
just ignorant)
My suggestions on doing something of the DDT ban were ignored and
instead conversation seemed to focus on the ethics of leaving baby
mosquitos parentless. Meanwhile 3 million people die every year.
Extropians like to talk to talk, but not walk the walk.
As I said, the deep value I find in the extropy list is that it is
perhaps the largest collection of intelligent people I have yet found on
a single list, and I have learned much from it, both refining my own
ideas, learning new ones, and hopefully helping to refine others ideas.
Something about the extropy list as it is tends to keep trolls and
annoying posters who can contribute little intellectually to any of us
away, and I do not feel it is really necessary to start listing more
rules and enforcing them, for example, subject line policies. Are
things really *that* bad? or are people just looking for new things to
complain about, perhaps to keep their mind from thinking about the
*real* terrible things out there that *should* be dealt with.
No doubt that the more rules and regulations that posting receives on
this list, the less of a free and open exchange of information it
becomes, and similar more of a waste of a time.
Don't worry, I do not suggest that ExI as a group make any official
movement toward accomplishing something productive, instead I call upon
individuals to do whatever they can to bring about extropian ideals.
Lets see some other excruciatingly gentle introductions. Lets hear some
proposals to accomplish goals we would all generally agree as
'extropian' and preferable. I would offer excruciatingly gentle
introductions If I could, but I don't consider myself an expert at
anything yet, but I am working on that.
More recently, I have been criticized for expressing moral outrage at
seemingly outrageous moral stances (I know, were all supposed to be
moral relativists) and condemned for calling someone a communist. As
Eliezer (I believe) noted, It is unreasonable to expect a member of this
list to support such totalitarian regimes, or find them valid, or
whatever. And rightly so, however, I pointed out a list member that
specifically supported such a regime. No comments were received. The
reasons why Eliezer expected no extropians to actually support Saddam is
the same reason why an extropian should be concerned when another
extropian claims that a similar oppressive totalitarian regime, a type
of regime responsible for more death this world has ever seen, is a
bunch of misunderstood good guys.
Instead of being applauded, or even responded to, I was criticized,
threatened with implied removal from the list and no doubt entered many
more Kill Files. Harvey specifically inquired 'Why does it matter if
someone is an communist' To which I asked him to show me any ANY
communist government that has ever supported a SINGLE extropian meme. A
planet full of poor, ignorant, starving peasant farmers is NOT
EXTROPIAN, and NEVER WILL BE. Thus one should be concern about the
presence and growth of such a system. I have noted frequently that
there are good number of Anarcho Socialists out there. Ah, but never
mind that, lets talk about orphaned mosquitoes. In all of this I have
also been criticized for talking too much about politics and not enough
about science!
Recently a topic was raised asking what we should do if we had 200
billion to spend on something. I was asked this question specifically,
and planned to answer it in depth, because its implications are
extremely important. I did not, however, because I did not feel anyone
would care what I had to say on it, and the person who asked it had
already mentioned I was in his Kill file.
Wondering what we should do with 200 billion dollars requires us to ask
ourselves what our goals are, what are the primary principles we should
endorse.
I would have opined the following:
Goals in order of importance
1) Ensure the continuation of intelligent life
2) Ensure the continuation of knowledge, technological embrace, and
information storage and generational transmisal, in other words, ensure
that intelligent life remains intelligent.
3) Work toward developing AI, human life extension, and technologies
making life more enjoyable. (where these can not be reasonable expected
to counter 1 or 2)
Etc...
A puzzling implication in all of this is whether pockets of extropy
should be encouraged at the expense of other areas falling into entropy.
In other words, should we sacrifice part of the world (say, the third
world) to bring about the singularity in the post industrial west? I
think this is an attitude some people on this list embrace, and I have
read some comments that suggest extropy is a zero sum, that it can only
grow at the expense of it falling in other areas. Though I have not
contemplated this important question in depth yet, I would say I oppose
its embracing. There is no guarantee that a singularity will ensure the
continuation of intelligent life, or intelligence in intelligence
capable life.
No goals worked toward should counter goals above it. Many people on
this list applaud the coming singularity, but I have seen little
discussion on what a post singularity world will be like, in fact it
seems to be considered ignorant to discuss such a topic. However, it
seems most people who support such an event are not qualified to judge
it as being reasonably not expected to counter goals 1 or 2. There are
plenty of intelligent people, after all, who care not for the
continuation of intelligent life, or intelligence in life. Who is to
say a super intelligent AI will value 1 or 2? Unless it can be
reasonably proved otherwise, goals 1 2 and 3 should still supercede
bringing about the singularity.
This is why I work for the Lifeboat foundation, which is the only
concentrated effort out there to ensure the continuation of intelligent
life. I have seen little mention of it on the extropy list, none that I
recall that I did not bring up. Observing this list leads me to the
conclusion that many extropians take it as blind faith that humanity,
and intelligent life, will survive, and generally do little to ensure
that continues. To them I ask (among other things), what of the Fermi
paradox? Where are the rest of the universes intelligent beings? I
have still yet to hear any decent counters to the Fermi paradox. (are
there any?)
If non exist, we should take this as a deep warning. It leaves only a
few possibilities, 1) no other intelligent technologically advanced life
has yet evolved 2) it has evolved but has not made it here 3) it has
evolved and it tends to destroy itself 4) it has evolved, is here, and
is undetectable. Of these options, non particular require any actions
on our part except for (3), which is the most dire of all. If they have
evolved, especially numerous times, and all end up destroying
themselves, then we must be ready and vigilant or we shall see our own
demise. If something lead to their end, it either a) was something they
could have known of and prevented or B) was unpreventable or
unpredictable. Of these, again, only one requires any action on our
part, (A)
Where are all the conversations on what could end the existence of
intelligent life? The conversations on doing something about those
threats? Where is the official extropy support of the Lifeboat
Foundation, or the Foresight Institute, or SETI, or the effort to
detect, track, and catalog space debris that might post a threat to us?
I consider motivation to be a significant variable in all of these.
Most of the world that isnt busy merely surviving is rather unmotivated.
If you responded to any of these criticisms thinking 'well, I wish I
could work on that, but I just don't have the
knowledge/training/expertise etc'. I say, get off your butt and get to
work, pick up a book, read, stop watching TV, etc etc.
I currently work nearly 80 hours per week, and feel guilty spending any
personal time with myself, doing things I enjoy. My other self says
'how can you be doing such things when there is so much suffering, the
only problems that exist in the world are ones no one has tried hard
enough to solve' While this daily creates ethical dilemmas for me, I do
not suggest it should be enforced upon anyone. It is only the way I
choose to spend my time that I debate over. To work as much as I can, I
consume modafinil regularly to reduce my need for sleep to 2 - 4 hours
per day, I would take more if I could afford it. I have written some of
my experiences with this drug, which all in all are positive. I want to
never stop learning, I learn as many new skills as I can, and do what I
can to achieve my goals with them.
This is not a bragging session, far from it, indeed refer to my essay on
motivation from my web site. 10 years ago I was a pathetic unmotivated
couch patato, today I am quite the opposite. I am no genius, I am no
person born to a sliver spoon (any more than most people on this list
who enjoy the comforts of the west) I am working my ass off to start my
own business, which will hopefully be successful and grow into something
that can support other beneficial technologies, and help me work toward
my stated goals.
What Should I do with my Life? -
http://www.matus1976.com/articles/mylife.htm
Excerpt "In my case, I am working very hard toward developing one of my
ideas, and the only reason for this is to achieve the ability to develop
more of them. This is my goal, and this is what makes me happy, and I am
working very hard to achieve it. I consider any failure on my part to be
due only to a lack of effort, not one of ability or potential, and I do
not feel that I am different in this regard from any average human
being. And if a failure can be attributed to a lack of ability, it is
only because I did not expend enough energy to develop that ability, not
because I (or anyone) is fundamentally unable to. To this the author
says "What should I do with my life? isn't just a productivity issue:
It's a moral imperative. It's how we hold ourselves accountable to the
opportunity we're given"
And a similar themed essay
Scandals lead execs to Atlas Shrugged, And an Introduction to Ayn Rand -
http://www.matus1976.com/articles/atlas_shrugged.htm
Excerpt "All, for those who interact with me on a regular basis you will
likely be familiar with one of my leading projects, mentioned in a
previous email. For the past two years I have been designing and
building a motorcycle. I have submitted a provisional patent application
for a particular aspect of the design, which I am building the full
vehicle to test. All of this has required hard work and long hours of
dedicated time consuming effort. I have devoted countless hours to
studying these subjects and developing my ideas. But dont see this as an
attempt to impress, instead I want to emphasize that I am an average
person of average potential. There is nothing I was born with that makes
me capable of working on this project that others do not have, in fact
the only thing I want people to recognize when hearing of my efforts is
that it is something they can accomplish as well, that they see in me
what they could do if they put the effort into it."
In conclusion, if you are an extropian that isnt doing much, get off
your butt and do something. You know who you are. Stop bickering over
unimportant things. For the reasons above I have restricted my
participation in this list, as it seems little productive value will
come from it. No doubt my efforts in this post will be considered
useless and probably either ignored or just add to the size of the kill
files I all ready grace. Too bad. Well, back to work.
Regards,
Michael Dickey
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Thu Jul 17 2003 - 10:25:30 MDT