Extropian Productivity (was RE: flame wars)

From: matus (matus@matus1976.com)
Date: Thu Jul 17 2003 - 10:51:29 MDT

  • Next message: Anders Sandberg: "Re: Ethical Investment Gone Wild"

     
    > At 05:09 PM 7/16/03 -0700, Mike Lorry wrote:
    >
    > >This all exactly what ExI AIN'T done, and as far as I can see, WON'T
    > >do. It's too bad, cause this inaction by ExI is highly
    > unextropic. If
    > >the luddites win, it will be entirely ExI's fault.
    >
    > ExI is not an activist organization. If you ever
    > participated in some of
    > the work that occurs at ExI central, you might have a better
    > understanding
    > of who is doing what. I think that perhaps your best work
    > and interest
    > lies in the political organization you mentioned in your
    > post, and I wish
    > you much success there.
    >
    > Frankly, I find your comments angry, backward and unproductive.
    >
    > Natasha
    >

    Mike speeks eloquently on many of the problems I feel plague this list
    as well. To call Mike's criticism of extropians (that they are
    unproductive) unproductive is indeed ironic. I see in this list the
    largest conglomeration of intelligent people in a single email list I
    have yet come across. While I don't know what many of you do offline
    (or on) I share Mr. Lorrey's sentiments, that it seems extropians are
    "are about the most non-action-oriented people I've ever met..." We are
    a vast computer with mostly unused CPU cycles... its a lot of well
    intentioned people hoping a better world comes around, but doing
    absolutely nothing to bring that about.

    A few weeks back, Harvey noted:

    "My biggest concern right now is that, in general, most Extropians lack
    the scientific expertise or understanding to support the evaluations and
    predictions we make." AND "I was among the first subscribers to this
    list at the end of the '80s decade. Now, I have just turned 40, and I
    am not sure that we are accomplishing anything."

    Harvey eloquently voiced some of my own concerns, though I would have
    probably labeled them 'annoyances' 'disappointments' instead of fears as
    Harvey politely labeled them, concerns which he later felt were put to
    rest. His concerns and Mike Lorry's observations are partly the reason
    for my less frequent posting as of late. It does not seem to me that
    much productive or practical developments come from the discussions on
    this list (given the info I am privy to).

    This, however, begs the question what is the point of our discussions.
    There is no doubt value in friendly chat with people of similar
    interests, and I don't think every conversation should be held to a
    criteria of 'prove this is beneficial to extropian ideals or cease
    posting' But conversely, there should be goals identified and worked
    toward as a combined group effort. I am sure there are a lot of
    individuals doing their own part, but surely the collective intelligence
    of this list has its own unique emergent properties.

    There has been more chatter on this list about thread titles and
    discussion names then there has been on a real effort to pursue
    technological progression. I would add to this comment the complaint
    that a lot of the discussions that take place are not important, while
    important discussion often are reacted to negatively.

    Why might I think Extropians are 'non-action oriented'? I hope to be
    proven wrong, but in the time I have been on this list I have made
    numerous suggestions, including:

    Recently I read Eliezer "excruciatingly gentle introduction" to a
    complex yet extremely important topic. I responded suggesting that
    since the extropy list is (probably) full of individuals who are experts
    on something or another, and given that it is important to spread
    scientific and extropian memes, perhaps Extropians should go about
    writing excruciatingly gentle introductions to complex yet important
    topics. I was going to further add that perhaps a monthly or bi-monthly
    newsletter relaying these 'excruciatingly gentle introductions' would be
    a phenomenal help at spreading extropian memes. I did not add that
    because, as I suspected would happen, did happen.

    0 replies.

    Ok, thats fine, but lets talk more about brains the size of jupiter and
    what we would ask god if we came across him, because these things are
    important.

    Previous to that, a few weeks back, I participated in a thread with
    Adrian Tymes, discussing the value of a small implant which would burn
    calories. Such an implant would a phenomenal and direct representation
    of the good that technology can achieve, and would save millions of
    people-years. With the 'Obesity' problem touted as the next global
    epidemic in the west, with one foul swoop that problem could be
    eradicated with such an implant. How many replies did Adrian and I
    receive when we pointed out the collective knowledge on the extropy list
    could likely achieve such a device?

    0 replies. Ok, Again, maybe not a good idea...

    Previous to that, a thread developed talking about cloning the most
    intelligent people in the world and raising the children in science
    friendly environments, receiving many replies and much discussion. I
    suggested instead that Extropians just adopt any of the thousands of
    information craved children out there with no good homes and start
    raising some extropian kids.

    0 replies. Not even a 'wow, good idea' (perhaps it just wasn't as
    well)

    Previous to that, I suggested that Extropians make an effort to put
    together an empirical account of historical events, given the immense
    amount of knowledge *and* contradictory opinions on here, there is no
    reason why a concentrated effort by intelligent individuals wouldn't
    result in near perfect objective account of important historical events.
    Considering no such repository exists, it seemed pretty valuable. But,
    again...

    0 replies.

    I have requested time and time again that someone take the time to do an
    in depth unbiased historical examination of, say, the cold war, with me
    but have only ever been met with silence. I have presented examples of
    what I mean when I say a good in depth examination of a historical
    question. Thankfully there seems a current movement amongst Skeptics to
    partake in just such an effort, spearheaded by Michael Shermers 'Denying
    History' which proved beyond a reasonable doubt using scientific
    methodology that the Holocaust did indeed happen. Instead people insist
    on holding their existing opinions, and have no interest in challenging
    them or justifying them.

    There are no doubt a lot of people on this list who know a lot of
    things, and suggesting they are wrong in the face of overwhelming
    evidence is absurd. I would never, for example, suggest Amara's
    descriptions on the formation of dust clouds is incorrect, however her
    historical account and perception of US involvement in the Afghan
    Invasion certainly was, and I presented a clear, calm, precise argument
    suggesting as much.

    Additionally, just recently, I lamented that the banning of DDT causes
    some 2 - 4million deaths annualy and that since its ban it has caused
    nearly 60 million deaths, putting one Rachel Carson as the top mass
    murderer of all time if you consider people to be morally culpable for
    their opinions being believed. Can we do something about the DDT ban?
    I don't know, but we can try? (perhaps the ban is a good idea, and I am
    just ignorant)

    My suggestions on doing something of the DDT ban were ignored and
    instead conversation seemed to focus on the ethics of leaving baby
    mosquitos parentless. Meanwhile 3 million people die every year.

    Extropians like to talk to talk, but not walk the walk.

    As I said, the deep value I find in the extropy list is that it is
    perhaps the largest collection of intelligent people I have yet found on
    a single list, and I have learned much from it, both refining my own
    ideas, learning new ones, and hopefully helping to refine others ideas.
    Something about the extropy list as it is tends to keep trolls and
    annoying posters who can contribute little intellectually to any of us
    away, and I do not feel it is really necessary to start listing more
    rules and enforcing them, for example, subject line policies. Are
    things really *that* bad? or are people just looking for new things to
    complain about, perhaps to keep their mind from thinking about the
    *real* terrible things out there that *should* be dealt with.

    No doubt that the more rules and regulations that posting receives on
    this list, the less of a free and open exchange of information it
    becomes, and similar more of a waste of a time.

    Don't worry, I do not suggest that ExI as a group make any official
    movement toward accomplishing something productive, instead I call upon
    individuals to do whatever they can to bring about extropian ideals.
    Lets see some other excruciatingly gentle introductions. Lets hear some
    proposals to accomplish goals we would all generally agree as
    'extropian' and preferable. I would offer excruciatingly gentle
    introductions If I could, but I don't consider myself an expert at
    anything yet, but I am working on that.

    More recently, I have been criticized for expressing moral outrage at
    seemingly outrageous moral stances (I know, were all supposed to be
    moral relativists) and condemned for calling someone a communist. As
    Eliezer (I believe) noted, It is unreasonable to expect a member of this
    list to support such totalitarian regimes, or find them valid, or
    whatever. And rightly so, however, I pointed out a list member that
    specifically supported such a regime. No comments were received. The
    reasons why Eliezer expected no extropians to actually support Saddam is
    the same reason why an extropian should be concerned when another
    extropian claims that a similar oppressive totalitarian regime, a type
    of regime responsible for more death this world has ever seen, is a
    bunch of misunderstood good guys.

    Instead of being applauded, or even responded to, I was criticized,
    threatened with implied removal from the list and no doubt entered many
    more Kill Files. Harvey specifically inquired 'Why does it matter if
    someone is an communist' To which I asked him to show me any ANY
    communist government that has ever supported a SINGLE extropian meme. A
    planet full of poor, ignorant, starving peasant farmers is NOT
    EXTROPIAN, and NEVER WILL BE. Thus one should be concern about the
    presence and growth of such a system. I have noted frequently that
    there are good number of Anarcho Socialists out there. Ah, but never
    mind that, lets talk about orphaned mosquitoes. In all of this I have
    also been criticized for talking too much about politics and not enough
    about science!

    Recently a topic was raised asking what we should do if we had 200
    billion to spend on something. I was asked this question specifically,
    and planned to answer it in depth, because its implications are
    extremely important. I did not, however, because I did not feel anyone
    would care what I had to say on it, and the person who asked it had
    already mentioned I was in his Kill file.

    Wondering what we should do with 200 billion dollars requires us to ask
    ourselves what our goals are, what are the primary principles we should
    endorse.

    I would have opined the following:

    Goals in order of importance

    1) Ensure the continuation of intelligent life
    2) Ensure the continuation of knowledge, technological embrace, and
    information storage and generational transmisal, in other words, ensure
    that intelligent life remains intelligent.
    3) Work toward developing AI, human life extension, and technologies
    making life more enjoyable. (where these can not be reasonable expected
    to counter 1 or 2)
    Etc...

    A puzzling implication in all of this is whether pockets of extropy
    should be encouraged at the expense of other areas falling into entropy.
    In other words, should we sacrifice part of the world (say, the third
    world) to bring about the singularity in the post industrial west? I
    think this is an attitude some people on this list embrace, and I have
    read some comments that suggest extropy is a zero sum, that it can only
    grow at the expense of it falling in other areas. Though I have not
    contemplated this important question in depth yet, I would say I oppose
    its embracing. There is no guarantee that a singularity will ensure the
    continuation of intelligent life, or intelligence in intelligence
    capable life.

    No goals worked toward should counter goals above it. Many people on
    this list applaud the coming singularity, but I have seen little
    discussion on what a post singularity world will be like, in fact it
    seems to be considered ignorant to discuss such a topic. However, it
    seems most people who support such an event are not qualified to judge
    it as being reasonably not expected to counter goals 1 or 2. There are
    plenty of intelligent people, after all, who care not for the
    continuation of intelligent life, or intelligence in life. Who is to
    say a super intelligent AI will value 1 or 2? Unless it can be
    reasonably proved otherwise, goals 1 2 and 3 should still supercede
    bringing about the singularity.

    This is why I work for the Lifeboat foundation, which is the only
    concentrated effort out there to ensure the continuation of intelligent
    life. I have seen little mention of it on the extropy list, none that I
    recall that I did not bring up. Observing this list leads me to the
    conclusion that many extropians take it as blind faith that humanity,
    and intelligent life, will survive, and generally do little to ensure
    that continues. To them I ask (among other things), what of the Fermi
    paradox? Where are the rest of the universes intelligent beings? I
    have still yet to hear any decent counters to the Fermi paradox. (are
    there any?)

    If non exist, we should take this as a deep warning. It leaves only a
    few possibilities, 1) no other intelligent technologically advanced life
    has yet evolved 2) it has evolved but has not made it here 3) it has
    evolved and it tends to destroy itself 4) it has evolved, is here, and
    is undetectable. Of these options, non particular require any actions
    on our part except for (3), which is the most dire of all. If they have
    evolved, especially numerous times, and all end up destroying
    themselves, then we must be ready and vigilant or we shall see our own
    demise. If something lead to their end, it either a) was something they
    could have known of and prevented or B) was unpreventable or
    unpredictable. Of these, again, only one requires any action on our
    part, (A)

    Where are all the conversations on what could end the existence of
    intelligent life? The conversations on doing something about those
    threats? Where is the official extropy support of the Lifeboat
    Foundation, or the Foresight Institute, or SETI, or the effort to
    detect, track, and catalog space debris that might post a threat to us?

    I consider motivation to be a significant variable in all of these.
    Most of the world that isnt busy merely surviving is rather unmotivated.
    If you responded to any of these criticisms thinking 'well, I wish I
    could work on that, but I just don't have the
    knowledge/training/expertise etc'. I say, get off your butt and get to
    work, pick up a book, read, stop watching TV, etc etc.

    I currently work nearly 80 hours per week, and feel guilty spending any
    personal time with myself, doing things I enjoy. My other self says
    'how can you be doing such things when there is so much suffering, the
    only problems that exist in the world are ones no one has tried hard
    enough to solve' While this daily creates ethical dilemmas for me, I do
    not suggest it should be enforced upon anyone. It is only the way I
    choose to spend my time that I debate over. To work as much as I can, I
    consume modafinil regularly to reduce my need for sleep to 2 - 4 hours
    per day, I would take more if I could afford it. I have written some of
    my experiences with this drug, which all in all are positive. I want to
    never stop learning, I learn as many new skills as I can, and do what I
    can to achieve my goals with them.

    This is not a bragging session, far from it, indeed refer to my essay on
    motivation from my web site. 10 years ago I was a pathetic unmotivated
    couch patato, today I am quite the opposite. I am no genius, I am no
    person born to a sliver spoon (any more than most people on this list
    who enjoy the comforts of the west) I am working my ass off to start my
    own business, which will hopefully be successful and grow into something
    that can support other beneficial technologies, and help me work toward
    my stated goals.

    What Should I do with my Life? -
    http://www.matus1976.com/articles/mylife.htm

    Excerpt "In my case, I am working very hard toward developing one of my
    ideas, and the only reason for this is to achieve the ability to develop
    more of them. This is my goal, and this is what makes me happy, and I am
    working very hard to achieve it. I consider any failure on my part to be
    due only to a lack of effort, not one of ability or potential, and I do
    not feel that I am different in this regard from any average human
    being. And if a failure can be attributed to a lack of ability, it is
    only because I did not expend enough energy to develop that ability, not
    because I (or anyone) is fundamentally unable to. To this the author
    says "What should I do with my life? isn't just a productivity issue:
    It's a moral imperative. It's how we hold ourselves accountable to the
    opportunity we're given"

    And a similar themed essay

    Scandals lead execs to Atlas Shrugged, And an Introduction to Ayn Rand -
    http://www.matus1976.com/articles/atlas_shrugged.htm

    Excerpt "All, for those who interact with me on a regular basis you will
    likely be familiar with one of my leading projects, mentioned in a
    previous email. For the past two years I have been designing and
    building a motorcycle. I have submitted a provisional patent application
    for a particular aspect of the design, which I am building the full
    vehicle to test. All of this has required hard work and long hours of
    dedicated time consuming effort. I have devoted countless hours to
    studying these subjects and developing my ideas. But dont see this as an
    attempt to impress, instead I want to emphasize that I am an average
    person of average potential. There is nothing I was born with that makes
    me capable of working on this project that others do not have, in fact
    the only thing I want people to recognize when hearing of my efforts is
    that it is something they can accomplish as well, that they see in me
    what they could do if they put the effort into it."

    In conclusion, if you are an extropian that isnt doing much, get off
    your butt and do something. You know who you are. Stop bickering over
    unimportant things. For the reasons above I have restricted my
    participation in this list, as it seems little productive value will
    come from it. No doubt my efforts in this post will be considered
    useless and probably either ignored or just add to the size of the kill
    files I all ready grace. Too bad. Well, back to work.

    Regards,

    Michael Dickey



    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Thu Jul 17 2003 - 10:25:30 MDT