From: Dehede011@aol.com
Date: Sun Jun 15 2003 - 19:03:35 MDT
In a message dated 6/15/2003 7:03:06 PM Central Standard Time,
sentience@pobox.com writes: I have marked patriotism and loyalty as "considered harmful"
since before the age of sixteen. I have seen nothing within the recent debacle
on the Extropian mailing list that leads me to reconsider this. "Patriotism
switches on, brain switches off" appears to be the rule. I shall side with the
right whether it be this country or another. Patriotism cannot help, can only
hinder, in computing this. If America is right then America is right whether
I had been born American or French. If America is wrong then America is
wrong whether I had been born British or Iraqi.
Elienzer,
Given the mass media of today with zillions of bits of data coming at
you how do you determine what is true and what is untrue.
Given the sheer number of claims coming at us any man might be
forgiven if he thought the Arabs of 911 were merely retaliating against prior
American misconduct.
I am saying that to a large extent ones decision might be colored by
ones viewpoint -- not our prior prejudices but simply where we happened to be
standing and our ability to get information from that viewpoint. For example
Amara is in Europe and surrounded by people that have different interests than
we have in this country. I am sure she is fair mainded enough to that she
tries to discount part of what she is hearing. But how does she get total
information, fair information and information free of self interest? I don't envy
the lady.
Now of course you can say that I am just as vulerable (although to a
different set of biases) as Amara is. I will agree.
It is also true that we can discern different layers of society all
with its set of prejudices, all with their slice of available information. I
was on campus and one teacher harranged the class with his PC version of events
and from that viewpoint a reasonable continuation of events.
In the end the determining factor for me was my acquaintence with 4
middle eastern people, my reading of their newspapers on line, and listening to
a middle eastern group that convinced me that all the claim they were
motivated by the sins of the Americans was a simple smokescreen. I got a slightly
mixed message. My middle eastern friends obviously loved the countries of their
birth. But, in the end their media convinced me that public opinion in the
middle east is being driven by the rulers of those countries based on fear of
what will happen if and when their populations call them to a reckoning -- a
reckoning of the social and economic conditions the population finds surrounding
them.
In the end I had to conclude that those attackers had attacked us and
would continue attacking us regardless of any merit or lack of merit in the
American position or conduct.
Here in this group we debate many subjects. Sometimes the language
gets very harsh. I've certainly had my feelings hurt, I am sure others have
also. Never the less we all agree that physical attack is beyond the pale.
But what about Patriotism, if you will forgive me the use of capital
letters. Even Eisenhower soldier and fighter that he was knew that Patriotism
is a farce, a studied air put on by folks attempting to fool us.
Still on 911 we saw firemen, policemen, emergency medical people and
sometimes others running toward the burning towers. I don't think Patriotism
had any part in that.
Instead we had men and women that loved their fellow man, that loved
their city enough to put their own bodies in harms way to protect and serve
those same people. For lack of a better word we call that love, that willingness
to walk in harms way to serve, patriotism. But the real stuff never needs
capitalization.
Can you be so sure that same love is not in the hearts of the
soldiers, etc., that went into Afghanistan and Iraq? Just today we found another Al
Queda base in western Iraq. That is not the first one. On March 3rd George
Bush laid out his reasons for removing Sadaam. Events have proven him right
despite the caterwauling.
In one sense the caterwauling over Iraq is misplaced in that the war
has moved on to other countries around the world. Sometimes the war is
military and sometimes it is diplomatic. But it is intense in anycase.
Still I return to your concern being with patriotism. You decided
against any patriotism at 16 yo or earlier. Don't you love anyone enough to
place your body between them and danger? Does 911 ask for anything more than an
extension of that love? Isn't it better to face danger now with friends than
wait until you are forced to defend your loved ones by yourself?
Ron h.
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